Podcast Transcript
Buzz Knight:
Today I’m taking a walk. This episode epitomizes the spirit of this podcast series: conversation, music, and joy. What more do you need? My guest today on Taking A Walk is Jorma Kaukonen, Grammy award winning guitarist, singer-songwriter, band member in Hot Tuna and Jefferson Airplane, Rock & Roll Hall of Fame inductee. I’m here at the Fur Peace Ranch in Pomeroy, Ohio, 126 acres of pure heaven, and I’m taking a walk with Jorma Kaukonen.
Recorded Announcement:
Taking a walk with Buzz Knight.
Buzz Knight:
Jorma, I’m so grateful to be with you here at the Fur Peace Ranch for the Taking A Walk podcast series. To say that I’ve been eagerly anticipating being here would be a vast understatement, sir. Thank you so much for having me. First, can you just describe for our audience this slice of heaven where we’re going to be taking a walk?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Sure. We’re in southeast Ohio, which is a really interesting part of the state. Ohio can be a maligned state sometimes, people think about the Cuyahoga River burning 30 years ago, all that kind of stuff. It’s a beautiful part of the country, it’s relatively rural as these things are considered. The glaciers didn’t get here, so we still see a lot of different stuff. It’s just a really neat part of the country. Rock outcroppings. And we’re at the Fur Peace Ranch, best of all. Good neighbors.
Buzz Knight:
Oh, I love it. Let’s take a walk.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Sure. Let’s head down the driveway here, we’re going to go down the way you guys came in, and soon as we … As you can see in front of you, this concrete strip here, this was a gravel driveway for many years until about six months ago. So this represents unbelievable progress on our part.
Buzz Knight:
Describe the mission of the Fur Peace Ranch.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Sure. We started the Fur Peace Ranch, gosh, I guess a quarter of a century ago or so, and what we wanted to do, because I’ve been in the music game for so long, but I’ve always enjoyed teaching, is that we wanted to somehow put together a teaching facility that made the learning process unintimidating, which has always been important to me as a teacher. Now all the stuff that you see here, there’s all sorts of infrastructures, too bad it’s a podcast, people can’t see this, but they can always go to the website and have a look. But in any case, all the stuff that actually got constructed, that’s Vanessa. If it was me we’d be sitting on a bale of hay in a field.
Buzz Knight:
It’s beautiful. I love the arrangement, and it really makes you feel comfortable just as soon as you arrive.
Buzz Knight:
You touched on teaching. You’ve been a teacher, really, since like the beginning of your career, really, right?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Absolutely. I moved to California in 1962, and I’d been playing the guitar for a while by that time, but just hanging out, and I was going to the University of Santa Clara at the time. I’d already become friends with Paul Kantner, who got me into Jefferson Airplane, which is another story. I played at open mics and stuff all the time, but you never got paid, and I remember Paul said, “Do you ever think about teaching?” And I went, “No, what would I teach?” He said, “How about what you know?” I thought, that’s not a bad idea. He got me into this little music store in San Jose, at Stevens Creek Boulevard, and I started teaching, and I taught well into the first year the Airplane was together.
Buzz Knight:
And you really took to it.
Jorma Kaukonen:
I really enjoyed the process, yes.
Buzz Knight:
But was it really like seeing the glow in somebody’s eyes when they really connected with something that you were showing?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Absolutely. It wasn’t just the showing up and teaching some poor hapless kid who really didn’t want to take piano lessons, because everybody really wanted to learn, but seeing people get it. It’s still exciting.
Buzz Knight:
Do you remember the first time that you played music in front of somebody, and what it felt like?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Sure. I guess the first time that I did it would’ve been … I can’t remember. I was under 10 years old, so it probably would’ve been either playing the recorder, little flute-like thing, or the piano, because I was taking piano lessons. I remember, of course that’s intimidating when you’re doing recitals, because there’s the pressure on us to do exactly what you’ve been taught to do, because that’s what recitals are all about, but I remember that when you nailed it, and you got a round of applause, you just felt good.
Buzz Knight:
Amazing. Then, you had this friend that kind of still has stuck with you through the years, right, Mr. Casady.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yes. I would’ve met Jack, probably, gosh, I guess probably in ’56, I would say. We didn’t start playing together, really, until ’58. Let’s take a right here, we’re going to leave the pavement. We’re going offroad here.
Buzz Knight:
We hit our blinkers, too, as we did it.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah, of course. So I met Jack through his older brother Chick, who was actually a year older than me. We became friends because we both liked cars and stuff like that. Chick was really into, had a huge blues collection, which was sort of an anomaly in those days. I remember when I’d go over to visit the Casadys, and he’d be playing this music, I went, “Wow, that’s really cool sounding.” So even before …
Jorma Kaukonen:
Let’s take a left around this gate here, that way we won’t have to climb that hill.
Buzz Knight:
Or the gate.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Or the gate, yeah. So just as a quick aside, since we’re in the country here, there’s an old joke about, how can you tell, if there’s three cowboys in a truck, how can you tell who’s the real cowboy. The answer is, the guy in the middle, because he doesn’t have to drive and he doesn’t have to get out and open the gate.
Buzz Knight:
By the way, we can do as many quick asides as you need.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Oh sure.
Buzz Knight:
That’s the beauty of taking a walk and doing podcasts, it’s no rules.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Anyway, he got me fired up just listening to the music. That was before I was playing the guitar. Then subsequently, in that same time period, another guy from the neighborhood, Michael Oliveri, had been playing the guitar. I’d been away for three years, my dad was stationed in Pakistan. When I came back there was a big difference in my friends. All the neighborhood girls looked like young women. When you leave and you’re 10 or 11, they don’t look like that. When you come back and they’re in high school, they do look like that.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah.
Jorma Kaukonen:
And all that kind of stuff. It was sort of a momentous time on a lot of levels. So Michael Oliveri started to teach me to play, and I started getting into this and that. Jack, of course, really unbeknownst to me, had been taking jazz guitar lessons at the time, and we didn’t really start playing together for a couple years until I came back … My parents were stationed in the Philippines and I came back for my senior year of high school, and that’s when we started playing together.
Buzz Knight:
So that was your first official band with Jack, right?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah, we’re using the term “official” loosely. Let me just quickly throw this giant twig out of the way here. Now we talk about garage bands, and I’ve got to say that ours wasn’t a garage band because my grandfather’s car was in the garage. We were a living room band.
Buzz Knight:
What was the name of that band?
Jorma Kaukonen:
The name of that band was The Triumphs, because we liked Triumph motorcycles and the Triumph logo looked good on a drum head.
Buzz Knight:
I love that. Did you play any paying gigs?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Our first paying gig was for one of the neighborhood girls named Charlotte Harbor. We had sororities in high school back in those days. So I think we made about $5 for playing that show, and I remember we went to the Hot Chops, which was the LA drive-through in the neighborhood those days and got a burger and a shake.
Buzz Knight:
Oh, I love that.
Jorma Kaukonen:
I see that I’m going to have a chainsaw job ahead of me here.
Buzz Knight:
Did you realize that taking a walk was going to be creating work for you?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Since I don’t have to do it that often, chainsaw is kind of fun. It’s like mowing the lawn, it’s fun for the first time, sort of fun for the second time, and after that you hire somebody.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah, exactly. Did you have some storms here come through recently?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah, we had some high winds actually. These are all dead, as you can see, but I will deal with them when the weather’s a little warmer.
Buzz Knight:
There you go. So you, then, were playing in California, obviously, in coffee houses and stuff. You had a little collaboration or two with Janis Joplin, right?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yes, correct. Before I moved out to California, because I went to Antioch College, and they had this coop job program, and I had a coop job in the summer of 1960 in New York. I worked at the Rusk Institute of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. I was an attendant. Of course aside from just playing and paying rent on my first apartment and all that kind of stuff, that was sort of the big folk scare, so there was lots of hoots and open mics and stuff like that. So by the time I moved to California, which is a couple years later, that’s what I looked for immediately. And the good news was, there was a lot of that in California.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah, right. What was it like being with Janis then?
Jorma Kaukonen:
I’ve told the story many times, but it never gets old. It was the first weekend that I was in Santa Clara, and I saw a little mimeographed sign on the campus that said, “Hootenanny at the [inaudible 00:10:51].”. And I went, well wow, that’ll make me feel right at home.
Jorma Kaukonen:
So I went and I got a ride, because I didn’t have a car then, I got a ride to the coffee house, and there was a couple people, this tiny little backstage … This was a little storefront place, tiny. And sitting in this little backstage closet-like area was me, I met Janis, there was a guy named Richmond Talbot. And Janis wasn’t, I don’t even know whether she played guitar at the time or not, but she didn’t have a guitar with her. So we just started talking, and it became apparent that my style would work with her. She asked me if I would accompany her, and I said yes, and it’s one of those things that’s turned out to be a great honor in the course of my life.
Buzz Knight:
Of course you had no idea of where her career was going to go.
Jorma Kaukonen:
None, of course not. I didn’t even know the word career back in those days. But I knew I was in the presence of greatness, I knew that immediately.
Buzz Knight:
That’s amazing. Wow. Then this little thing called the Airplane happens.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah, that didn’t happen till ’65 or some years later, but the evolving scene of the Bay Area, if you think about what a fertile ground it was for some of the people that became luminaries of that time, Garcia, the guys in the Grateful Dead, Janis, Big Brother, all of those guys, everyone was just feeling folky kind of stuff, all those people existed in various different configurations back then. But it’s before “it” happened.
Buzz Knight:
But it was really just the love of music, hanging out, right, just playing.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah.
Buzz Knight:
It was effortless really, in its own way.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Totally. It’s what we did. Let’s go down the hill here.
Buzz Knight:
All right.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah, it’s just what we did. We would’ve done it anyway, because that’s what was happening for those of us in that world.
Buzz Knight:
But everybody loved hanging out.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Totally.
Buzz Knight:
And there was probably a no-jerks-allowed kind of rule.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Honestly, thinking back, I just don’t remember there being very many jerks back then. I’m sure there were, but they didn’t seem to gravitate into the music circles.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. Look at this rock formation here.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah, I’m going to show you, there’s a little bit of graffiti from the 1800s just over there.
Buzz Knight:
Wow, I love that. So the original formation, obviously, of the Airplane included various different members, and it evolved, and I love how ultimately Jack Casady joined. He hadn’t even played bass, right?
Jorma Kaukonen:
No, he had been playing bass for a number of years, but I had never heard him play. That’s the funny thing about it. But just knowing what a meticulous guy he is, some might say anal, but I’ll use the word meticulous-
Buzz Knight:
Did he say anal?
Jorma Kaukonen:
I don’t think so. I think he probably would’ve said meticulous. But to show you how he was, when we were looking for a bass player, I knew he would be great, and he didn’t disappoint.
Buzz Knight:
Just a student of it all.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Totally, yeah.
Buzz Knight:
Still is.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Oh yeah. That’s the thing about being a musician. Jack and I talked about this. We’re always students. It just never gets old.
Buzz Knight:
You learn a new way, a new piece of equipment.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Right, a new harmony, a new … There’s always something to set you on fire.
Buzz Knight:
Is there a particular time of day, I know we’re chronological here, but I’m going off path a little. Is there a time of day where you feel most creative?
Jorma Kaukonen:
No. I think it’s just, you have to wait until the muse calls. And when it calls, you really need to answer it. Because if you clear the table or take the trash out or something, that moment will be gone. Which is why I think it makes it difficult on some level, a little more difficult, when you get older or you’re dealing with family and stuff like that. Because sometimes the trash has to go out. Back in those early days when all we had to do was play music, it was easy to heed the call.
Buzz Knight:
So the venues that the Airplane played in during that period were pretty remarkable. I was fortunate to be in one of those venues some years ago, the Fillmore East.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Right, of course.
Buzz Knight:
What were some of your favorite venues during that period?
Jorma Kaukonen:
I think the Fillmore East would certainly be one of those. The Fillmore in San Francisco, obviously, it’s still there. Even though you look at it today, and now it’s a refined music venue. Back then the stage was like three inches tall.
Buzz Knight:
Really.
Jorma Kaukonen:
It feels kind of a revival hall really. When you mentioned the Fillmore East, there was something about that place that I guess all of us that played there will always remember. There were so many great gigs back then, the Grande Ballroom in Detroit. Gosh, I should keep a list of these things. But at the head of the list, I’d have to say the Fillmore East.
Buzz Knight:
The way that the gigs were constructed back then, in terms of the bills, always fascinated me. It was really things that were congruous and other things that were not.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Right. Bill Graham was really an inventive booker of shows, and honestly, I doubt that an audience today would really tolerate … Your average audience, they go to see the stars, they hate the opening act. We always talk about the DOA, the dreaded opening act. But it wasn’t like that back then. The show was the show. Whether there was a Russian poet, or Lawrence Ferlinghetti, or Charles Lloyd Jazz or Jefferson Airplane, the Grateful Dead, it didn’t matter.
Buzz Knight:
The one that I saw had Joe Cocker on the bill actually.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Right.
Buzz Knight:
This was August 8th, 1969, and what I also remember about it is, someone from the band said at that concert, “We’re going to be doing this free show in Central Park this Sunday, and we’re inviting these friends who haven’t released their new album yet, named Santana.” I was fortunate enough to not only see that Fillmore show, but then go to the Central Park event as well.
Jorma Kaukonen:
The first time I saw Santana, because I just heard him as a talented kid that, the music I heard him play was more blues oriented in San Francisco, but when we did our show at Woodstock, and we saw Santana earlier, it was an eye-opener, let me tell you.
Buzz Knight:
The free concert thing, did you guys, you and the Dead, sort of start that kind of idea then?
Jorma Kaukonen:
I guess we were probably the more publicly visible people to start that. But in San Francisco there were a lot of organizations, the Diggers, the White Panthers, all kinds of folks, that did free stuff in the park, so it’s just kind of what we did. We were more visible, so people …
Buzz Knight:
Did you enjoy those?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Absolutely.
Buzz Knight:
Was there any particular big moment, free concert, that stands out the most?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Wow. I’m thinking it probably would’ve been one of those Human Being ones in San Francisco, would probably be one of them.
Buzz Knight:
Right, yeah. And there was a multitude of acts on those bills as well, right?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Oh my gosh, yeah, it was an all-day event. Listen, where we’re walking here, I believe it’s the north fork of the Shade River. We use the term River loosely here. But if it was the right season we could be looking for merles. Because I can’t tell you exactly where they are, but there are some down here.
Buzz Knight:
Really, wow. I love that. I also remember, and I wanted to ask you, there were moments that the Airplane played, but Paul Kantner and Grace didn’t show up, or had previous commitment, or got lost. What do you remember about missing in action band members?
Jorma Kaukonen:
To be honest with you, this is one of these things that I probably should remember. Just as an aside here, too bad your folks can’t see this, see that thing over there? We made a bridge, but the water has taken this bridge down and now it’s laying on the other side of the river.
Buzz Knight:
Oh yeah, look at that.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Fancy that. So look at all the stuff here. Look at all of the silt. As time goes on, wish the folks could see this, as time goes on this will be almost dry.
Buzz Knight:
Look at that.
Jorma Kaukonen:
But you can see, when the water comes up, even where we’re standing, we’d be under six feet of water.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. I love it.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Interesting. Anyway, yeah, missing band members. I wish I could weigh in on this with some authority, but I can’t.
Buzz Knight:
So Hot Tuna came out of the fact that … Wait, hold on, what is this here?
Jorma Kaukonen:
That’s part of a deer, I would say.
Buzz Knight:
Look at that, yeah.
Jorma Kaukonen:
I would say that’s part of a deer, or, no, maybe it’s not that big. Could be a coyote or something.
Buzz Knight:
Coyote [inaudible 00:20:50].
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah, it could be a coyote.
Buzz Knight:
Wow.
Jorma Kaukonen:
wow, an artifact.
Buzz Knight:
I love it.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah. Here’s an old LP tank, there’s an artifact. All the stuff that were down here would be under water.
Buzz Knight:
Oh man, what a glorious place. This is amazing.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Bunch of stuff, I haven’t been down here for a while. Those trees falling over, that’s new. Holy moly.
Buzz Knight:
So Hot Tuna was born out of the fact that you guys wanted to play as long as you could, right?
Jorma Kaukonen:
That’s the interesting thing. Jack and I never stopped playing, we always played together, and for the most part it was me playing the acoustic guitar and him playing an electric bass of some sort. The first time that I remember, too bad we don’t have Jack here to weigh in on this, the first time I remember that we actually played in public like that was at the Fillmore East. In the course of an Airplane show, Paul said, “Why don’t you guys play something?” And we did, and people liked it. We just enjoyed doing that, I think, as soon as we became aware that yeah, we need to do this.
Jorma Kaukonen:
The Airplane format … The Airplane was just a rock-solid show back in those days, and not all venues would’ve entertained that much of sort of an idiosyncratic band. At the Fillmore East you could do anything, it was like being in San Francisco, but it was in New York. So I think that opened our eyes to the fact that we could do that. We were very lucky, because we had no financial pressures on us to make eight as a band, because we were in another band at the time. So we could actually do that and not worry about whether we God paid or not and stuff. Which is a situation most bands will never have to deal with. You’ll always worry about getting paid, that would come later.
Buzz Knight:
What a freeing and remarkable thing to have, right. But the band, what’s so amazing about Hot Tuna, other than a couple of moments where you guys split off and did other things, Jack obviously did his thing, the band has endured, and still endures, and people love the band. What do you think is the secret to that?
Jorma Kaukonen:
First of all I’ve got to say, Jack and I are so lucky that that is the case. And I’m not sure what the secret is, because it’s hard to look through somebody else’s eyes, but I suspect that part of the equation is that Jack’s and my music is really honest. If you like it, we love that obviously. If you don’t like it, that’s just the way it is. But we’ve never tried to ever be anybody but who we are.
Buzz Knight:
Authenticity.
Jorma Kaukonen:
And people have accepted that. That’s not always the case.
Buzz Knight:
Right. But where did radio play into, in your mind, certainly the Airplane, but also Hot Tuna?
Jorma Kaukonen:
The quote-unquote kids today wouldn’t get this at all. Do you mind walking on this mud here, by the way?
Buzz Knight:
I do not mind.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Okay. The rise of FM radio, non-formatted FM radio, was hugely important to all of us back then. Hot Tuna was not a hit band, so we never would’ve gotten played on AM radio, ever. So the fact that cool FM stations and stuff played all the cool music just was golden for all of us.
Buzz Knight:
Certainly New York was a bastion for that, and San Francisco was. What other markets that you remember were bastions of it for both the Airplane and Hot Tuna?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Any place that so-called counterculture existed. For example, Chicago, obviously. LA to a much lesser extent, in my opinion. Places like Kansas City had a huge counterculture thing. Back in even Oklahoma City, Kansas City, you never know when you were going to be somewhere. I remember playing Fargo, North Dakota, and it was happening there. You just never know where that kind of stuff’s going to happen. Los Angeles to a lesser degree, but I remember, yeah, I’d say Chicago, New York, the DC area, Miami.
Buzz Knight:
Boston.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Absolutely, sure.
Buzz Knight:
Detroit.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Detroit, sure.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. During the times, then, obviously, things bubbled under musically, things bubbled under politically. Do you ever look at, now, what’s going on in the world, and wonder why there’s not more bubbling musically relating to the times?
Jorma Kaukonen:
That’s interesting, I’ve got a 25-year-old son and an almost 16-year-old daughter that love mucus, and you talk to them, and of course they’re into what they’re into. They both have good taste in music, but most of the stuff they listen to, I wouldn’t listen to. Not because of the music, but because the lyrics don’t speak to me. If you think about back in, quote-unquote, the day that we’re talking about, if you think about how important, how inextricably intertwined the popular music was with the social events of the time, I’m going out on a limb here because I’m not really tuned into it, I don’t see that today. Yes, there are writers that write stuff that’s extremely current, but do people today … Maybe like the Airplane and Crosby, Stills, and Nash, or The Doors, “What are they going to say on their next album?” Do people say that today? I don’t know, that’s a good question.
Buzz Knight:
I don’t think they do. I think that’s an excellent point. But I also wonder too whether, frankly, fear of risk-taking that exists, where maybe an artist or a band is afraid to upset a certain part of their fan base maybe?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Listen, I don’t doubt that’s the case. We never could’ve imagined all the stuff we have today. For example, about five or six years ago for my birthday, my daughter gave me a drone with a camera, and I fired this to learn how to fly. Yes, I got my drone license from the FAA. Most people don’t, but I got mine. Anyway, when I was your age I would’ve died to have something like this. I’m holding this remote control and I can see what the bird sees. It’s unbelievable. So all of the stuff, everybody’s so connected and wired, it’s hard not to be subconscious.
Buzz Knight:
But you’ve always liked technology, that’s really what kind of drove you to the Airplane in a way.
Jorma Kaukonen:
In a lot of respects. Although it’s so archaic by today’s standards, but yes.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah, for that time.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah.
Buzz Knight:
So I think the reflection of the time changes, but some of the message doesn’t change I guess, right.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Right, exactly.
Buzz Knight:
But I think that it was such a time of so many mind-altering things happen.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Absolutely. We haven’t mentioned mind-altering drugs, but they need to be mentioned, because … Not that I’m encouraging people to either take or not take them, but they need to be mentioned because that had a lot to do with what was going on also. And it would’ve been a different world, certainly for the artists of that period, had not all that stuff happened.
Buzz Knight:
Another remnant bone here.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Ah.
Buzz Knight:
Exactly.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Artifacts.
Buzz Knight:
Did you ever think you would live to see the moment that cannabis was made legal?
Jorma Kaukonen:
I remember … The answer is, recently yes, but back in the day, never.
Buzz Knight:
Never.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Never. I remember, a pot bust was a major felony. It could change your lives in ways that could never be undone.
Buzz Knight:
Right.
Jorma Kaukonen:
By the way, if you see where we are here, that big rock there, I forgot to look at the graffiti, you were going, “What a nice rock outcropping.” There it is. Look at that.
Buzz Knight:
Wow. That is amazing. So one of the connections that is why I’m here, and I’m so fortunate to be here, is my master collaborator, Pete Hurlbut, who drove me down here, dear friend from my days in Columbus, and what’s so beautiful is how your life intersected with this guy John Hurlbut.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Sure. Well the Hurlbut family, Pete and his mom and dad, may they both rest in peace, and his sister and his nieces and nephews, the Hurlbut family has been a subset of our family for many decades.
Buzz Knight:
I didn’t realize that. I obviously know about John. You had played with John informally in the past?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Right, yeah.
Buzz Knight:
How joyful is it now for you guys to be creating?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Like I said, John and I have been friends for a long time. I can say pushing four decades easily. So we’ve always played, and he works with us at the ranch, et cetera, et cetera, and we’ve done some stuff when we used to do dinners and lunches. We’d get together and play for the lunch crowd and have a really good time. And for me, as our musical friendship expanded over the years, and took off exponentially, which we’ll get to in a minute, but for me to be able to be supportive of someone else, and just bring to the table the same kind of musical insights that I did with the Airplane, where I was not the focus, when I do the Jorma thing or Hot Tuna thing, I’m the front guy and that’s the deal, that’s how it is. But this way, I got a chance to just think about, quote-unquote, the music, and not worry about being me, which was a real burden to be lifted. And of course Johnny and I, at the beginning of the pandemic, wound up doing this double album, The River Flows.
Buzz Knight:
Which is beautiful.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Thank you very much, which we cut live. It’s just one of those joyous … We’re so fortunate to be able to do that, and to have the opportunity to do it also. So yeah, it’s become a huge part of my musical life, and we just had a killer rehearsal a couple days ago, and we play shows periodically. We play together a couple times a week regardless, because it’s fun.
Buzz Knight:
The joyful part. We keep saying that, but it’s so evident when you watch it or listen to it, it just radiates joy. There’s obviously a lot of other players that, certainly, come down here to Fur Peace, or sort of party, or maybe formal or informal advisory board. You want to talk about some of those players that also inspire you?
Jorma Kaukonen:
I’m inspired all the time. We’ve had so many great players here. We had Randy Foster, he had some country hits but he’s a killer singer-songwriter, great artist. Gosh, Trey Hensley, Jerry Douglas, Rob Ickes, gosh, Roland Thompson. We could have a whole thing on just the people that came down there. But the good news about all that is, it’s always a friendly dialogue with the talent that has come through the doors. Sierra Hall, can check out Sierra Hall. Again, we could go on and on. But again, unintimidating … Is this a family podcast, or can I …
Buzz Knight:
You could say anything.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Okay there’s no swinging dick stuff here, for lack of a better way to put it. And you know what I talk about.
Buzz Knight:
I do. It’s kind of the no-jerks rule.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Exactly. Another way to put it, exactly.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. But the music community, certainly your music community, it’s all, once again, out of that love for music, right.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah. Again, if you think about where Jack and I are, or John and I, or any of our pals that do what we do, we’re not a hit-making band, if indeed ever we were. But we certainly are not now. But our fans allow us to be us without having to try to recapture the greatest moments of our lives. Because things are changing and evolving all the time. Some stuff they like better than others.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Let’s head up that way, where that little deer trail is. Actually let’s go over here, we’ll climb over the log. But yeah, they allow us to change. They allow us to alter stuff. “I liked it better when you …” Okay, I’ll accept that, but that’s not how we do it today.
Buzz Knight:
But the audience, back to what you were saying about authenticity, the audience respects the authenticity, and that’s, I think, why they allow you the freedom.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Agreed. So we don’t have to … I don’t know the Eagles, but when the Eagles do a reunion tour, they got to sound like the hits, they got to sound like the Eagles. And that’s okay, but we don’t have to.
Buzz Knight:
Right. You can do what you want to do.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah.
Buzz Knight:
Before pandemic, how many days out of the year were you on the road?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Wow. Before the pandemic I was probably out, my goodness, I’m guessing 150 easy, maybe more.
Buzz Knight:
And it was in various incarnations too.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah, of course, various incarnations. And I’m not the only one to say this, but 2020 was going to be our best year ever. But the good news is we’re still here, and that’s okay.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah, and now you’ve got shows booked, and more shows …
Jorma Kaukonen:
Yeah, we’re out on the road again. I’m not saying it’s … People talk about the new normal, it is what it is. And we’re lucky we’re here.
Buzz Knight:
And people, I think, are really so anxious to get out and enjoy.
Jorma Kaukonen:
We’ve noticed something that’s really interesting. It’s not just the musicians that are thrilled to get out again. And we are of course, obviously, because we were out of work for two years. But the feeling, psychic energy of audiences that are also thrilled to be out, is palpable.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. It’s got to be something. So it’s different in a way, do you think, meaning that people have been so locked away?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Definitely.
Buzz Knight:
Did you detect a different energy?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Totally.
Buzz Knight:
And of course that yields, probably, even greater performances from you guys, right?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Oh, I definitely say so. We did, gosh, I guess, 50-some free quarantine concerts where we’re playing to an empty house, but we convinced ourselves that there were people on the other end of the electronic stuff. So it wasn’t exactly an empty house, but there’s no substitute for a full house.
Buzz Knight:
Did that take some learning though?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Absolutely.
Buzz Knight:
When you reflect on music, which has been your life, and is your life, and you think about the amazing effect that music has, what’s the magic behind music? Can you express that?
Jorma Kaukonen:
I’m sure there’s a lot of different opinions about this, but I think, for me, nothing communicates emotion in a nonverbal way as music does. And of course a lot of music has lyrics also, but just that physical feeling that certain sounds engender in a person … I guess I just can’t think of something else that would do that for me. That’s one of the things that makes it so important. It’s just a way to communicate.
Buzz Knight:
Where would we be without it?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Well I’d be out of work. But I know what you mean. Absolutely.
Buzz Knight:
I think about it all the time when, personally, I’m slugging along in a down mood, and head to the music and you’re just lifted up.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Totally.
Buzz Knight:
Listen, it can bring you down too, but not in a detrimental way. It touches the heart, and I’m constantly fascinating. I’d like to ask somebody who understands neuroscience about it, but they probably wouldn’t understand the answer either, right?
Jorma Kaukonen:
Or they’d overcomplicate it.
Buzz Knight:
Right. We talk about joy, and the joy and beauty of it, and lyrics, and just sounds and distortions.
Jorma Kaukonen:
All that stuff.
Buzz Knight:
The whole package. Well I have to tell you, this walk has been spectacular here.
Jorma Kaukonen:
At least it wasn’t snowing.
Buzz Knight:
We were talking about it here, the snow, right, Vanessa and I.
Jorma Kaukonen:
It snowed the other day, but it’s not snowing today.
Buzz Knight:
I just have to personally thank you for taking a walk, but I also have to just thank you for, certainly, the joy that you have brought me, and continue, certainly, to bring me and legends of people across the globe. It’s something I’m so thankful for, and I really want to thank you for, Jorma.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Thanks. I’m not being disingenuous when I say that the pleasure was mine, because I’d be in trouble if I couldn’t communicate this way.
Buzz Knight:
Thank you Jorma, I appreciate it.
Jorma Kaukonen:
Thank you my friend.
Recorded Announcement:
Taking A Walk with Buzz Knight is available on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or where you get your podcasts.
About The Author
Buzz Knight
Buzz Knight is an established media executive with a long history of content creation and multi-platform distribution.
After a successful career as a Radio Executive, he formed Buzz Knight Media which focuses on strategic guidance and the development of new original content.
