Podcast Transcript
Buzz Knight:
Well, hello. I’m Buzz Knight, the host of the Taking A Walk podcast series, and welcome to this special National Association of Broadcasters, NAB, 2022 edition. Now, for those of you in our vast international audience… Hello, Germany, Australia, Canada, Finland, France, Slovenia, Aruba, Hong Kong, the Ukraine… yes, the Ukraine… Croatia, Poland, St. Lucia or Struthers, Ohio.
Buzz Knight:
NAB stands for National Association of Broadcasters and I’m heading to the big convention, NAB 2022, in Las Vegas. I’m here Taking A Walk. All right, right now I’m not Taking A Walk, to be honest with you. It’s so early in the morning, an early alternate reality Saturday morning at Logan Airport. Everything seems to be operating in slow motion. Watching a guy walk by. Literally, he looks like he’s moonwalking. It’s so early. You see odd things in an early hour. Most notably what I saw kid you not, was a father and son arguing in the restroom over the fact that the son was brushing his teeth. I kid you not. And it looked like the father didn’t even have the word dentist in his vocabulary.
Buzz Knight:
Anyway, I’m thinking about the best way for me to document the Taking A Walk series for this NAB trip, and I promise later on in the series, I will be walking. And the best way to document this is a collection of various Taking A Walk interesting guests. The decision came to me after a writer’s meeting last night, intense, which really means that I had a few martinis with my wife. She had to listen to me neurotically throwing ideas against the wall on what to do with Taking A Walk for this trip. I agreed with myself that unless Lady Gaga, Barry Manilow or Charro would be available when I hit Vegas for Taking A Walk, that this needs to be a collection of people. So now you know. This is what we’re up to. And from now on, we’re going to call this the Taking A Walk NAB 2022 Collection. You never know who we’re going to run into.
Announcer:
Taking A Walk with Buzz Knight.
Buzz Knight:
Well, I knew I would be walking around Caesar’s Palace and bump into somebody that I knew here in Las Vegas. Hello, Ben Arnold from the NPD Group from Washington DC.
Ben Arnold:
Buzz, it’s a pleasure to see you again. It’s been too long.
Buzz Knight:
I know. It’s nice to see you in person.
Ben Arnold:
It’s nice to see anybody in person, right?
Buzz Knight:
It certainly is. Yeah. Vegas is animated as always, and is a trip, but we’re visiting for NAB 2022. It’s so nice to see you. In your role with NPD you examine consumer behavior, really, on behalf of many clients in the consumer technology business. What’s going on over the last couple of years, in terms of the way consumer behavior has reacted to these last few years?
Ben Arnold:
Well, consumer behavior, I think, has been sort of disrupted and our routines have been thrown out of whack, which impacts what people buy, what people consume. As the pandemic started, it was really hard to see what was going to happen. It was hard to forecast some of these changes in consumer behaviors.
Ben Arnold:
One of the interesting things that happened is people really began to rely on their technology much more than they had been. And we saw, I think, the value on the technology that we use every day really go up. We saw sales go up. Sales in 2020 were up 17% over the year prior. We never see that. Consumer electronics is a pretty mature business, right? It’s maybe up 2%, maybe down 2% one year. 17% is a big deal. Sold like eight million more TVs than we normally do in a year. That’s a big deal. I’m seeing people rely on their technology for productivity. For working and virtual work, I need a laptop at home.
Ben Arnold:
But also for their entertainment, their leisure time. I can’t go out on a trip. There’s no kid’s sports. Let me add another streaming subscription to my household and hunker down and watch. And that had a big impact on technology sales. And as we go forward, continuing to see really high demand on technology, so I think that something has happened where this value that people place on technology is much higher. We continue to see sales grow, continue to see people engaged with their technology products, listening to audio, streaming video, taking pictures. All those things have really just kicked into high gear.
Buzz Knight:
What does it mean to… Let’s first to the television side of media and then let’s get the implications of what all this means to folks in radio.
Ben Arnold:
On the television side, I mean, it just means that that’s where people are spending their time, right? Technology in some ways is becoming an engagement business, and that’s no truer than what we see in the streaming numbers. People spend a lot of time streaming, Netflix hour streamings is up and that’s good news for TV manufacturers. I mean, they can sell more TVs. There’s more demand. Think about audio. It’s a little bit of a different story. Audio’s very linked to our routines. I wake up in the morning, go to my kitchen, tell Alexa, “Put on NPR.” My day starts. What if my day doesn’t start like that anymore? What if I’m getting up later because I don’t have to be in the office at 7:00? I just have to log onto my computer at a certain time.
Ben Arnold:
It’s been a little bit of a mixed bag for audio. Certainly people are consuming more media and that’s good for, I think, all media types, but things that were connected to routines were thrown out of whack. I think the good part is getting back into some sense of normalcy. Seasonal patterns are returning, people are going back to work and so some of those routines are coming back. And I believe that’s a good story for broadcasters. But even through all of that, even through if we want to call this disruption or some of this churn, I think we’ve discovered new behaviors, new things that we engage with. And I think that ultimately has been good for content business. I think it’s been good for audio.
Buzz Knight:
And back to the TV side of things, first of all, reaction to Netflix losing a fair amount of subscribers. And then I can’t stop our little walk-in discussion with also asking you for a reaction on CNN Plus.
Ben Arnold:
Well, CNN News is interesting. I used to work in the news business, and one thing I always thought is national news, like who has the market cornered on that? It’s really hard. It’s really hard to stand up a news streaming service when we get that news from other places. And I guess there ultimately wasn’t a whole lot unique about CNN Plus. Think about we get a lot of our news through streaming, through mobile devices, through apps anyway. In the end, what was all that different about it? I think that’s what kind of led to it falling apart.
Ben Arnold:
Netflix, I mean, they’ve been really just killing it for so long, and you felt like some of that was going to come back to earth. Related to some of the things I said earlier about streaming, we may have hit peak streaming in the middle of 2020 with respect to video streaming. Things have kind of normalized since then. so I think as we spend more time doing other things, that challenges those Netflix streaming minutes, and I think that’s one of the things that’s going on with their outlook.
Buzz Knight:
It’s nice to bump into you at Caesars Palace. I think I got to run up to Tommy Bahamas and get some duds for the rest of the Want to join me?
Ben Arnold:
Yes, yes. I was thinking I’m coming here to watch Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Hagler. That’s what I always think when I come to Caesars. We’re both kind of on the same wavelength.
Buzz Knight:
Right. Great to see you, Ben.
Ben Arnold:
All right, Buzz.
Buzz Knight:
Well, I so happen to be Taking A Walk near the Renaissance Hotel here and lo and behold, who do I bump into? It’s my dear friend, Bryan Biniak from Connected Travel. Bryan, what are you doing here in Vegas at the NAB?
Bryan Biniak:
Well, we drove in from Las Vegas, my friend Xavier from Radioline and I, and John Ellis. We got in a Polestar and we drove nine hours on a three-hour drive to come to the NAB show, to showcase some of the stuff we’re working on.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. You’ve made some news here at the show. Why don’t you tell our audience, which spans not only the US, but globally, what Connected Travel is up to because it’s making news here?
Bryan Biniak:
Well, we have been working quietly over the past six months with an auto OEM in Europe, Radioline and SimpleBet, to build a next-generation radio experience in a car that enables drivers to interact with live sportscast, and enables them to do microbetting while they’re driving. They could bet on NFL, NBA, major league baseball games. Every time somebody comes up to bat or makes a pitch, you have the ability to make a bet by voice and win prizes, and eventually you’ll be able to win money.
Buzz Knight:
The implications of this at a time when the radio industry has gotten this influx of sports betting money, I think are really massive, don’t you think, for the industry at this time, especially?
Bryan Biniak:
Hopefully it’s transformative. Most of the time, the betting companies like FanDuel and DraftKings and BetMGM are advertising on air. People are listening to the radio in the car, and then they have to remember where to go at some point in time after they finish their trip. In this particular case, the advertising becomes transactable, they can engage immediately. And more importantly, while they’re listening to the sportscast, they can actually participate in the game and make live bets themselves as well as with their friends and other fans of their favorite teams.
Buzz Knight:
And do you think this increases the length of time people listen as well?
Bryan Biniak:
Absolutely. And typical, your standard betting experiences, you bet before the game and you wait until the end of the game. In this particular case, you’re able to bet… over an average for say a major league baseball game… you can bet over 150 times during the game at pitches and bats going on in the game. And that creates significantly more engagement, but what’s also great about this is that every single time somebody engages you know, so you can measure the activity and provide that attribution that’s been missing in radio for so long.
Buzz Knight:
What about the safety aspect of this, though?
Bryan Biniak:
Well, one of the most important things is we have a voice interface to this, so while people are driving, they can keep both hands on the wheel. They can listen to the game and simply say “Bet,” and then they’ll hear the results. And it also pushes all of their stats to their mobile device. After the game, you get a chance to see all of your wins during the game and then count them up and also keep track of them for future games, because there’s all kinds of prizes that you have the ability to win along the way, too.
Buzz Knight:
And you have other implications of this when it comes to use cases for probably like an NPR, I’m thinking, as well?
Bryan Biniak:
Yes. Pre-COVID, we had started some of our work on transactional radio and did a project with a couple of NPR stations, where we enabled people to donate and tip while they were listening to the broadcast, as well as send the content to themselves if they couldn’t finish the story, or more importantly, if they found something inspiring, they could send that story to friends and family and colleagues.
Buzz Knight:
To get this into a scalable marketplace, how do you see this rolling out so it becomes a bigger deal?
Bryan Biniak:
Well, the first thing we’ve been doing is making sure that it works on some of the emerging platforms that enable this kind of interactivity. CarPlay, Android Auto, and now with what we’re announcing here, Android Automotive, so that it can be embedded in vehicles. That’s the most important thing, being on these next-generation platforms. And then the cars themselves, with the payment systems, with the voice systems and commerce systems enable broadcasters, teams, leagues in the case of sports, to plug in directly and provide these services to their fans. We’ve got something that is vehicle-independent, and then works just like a smartphone across all of these different vehicles that support CarPlay and Android Auto, which is almost every vehicle that’s sold today has that capability.
Buzz Knight:
Well, good luck on it. You know, I was hoping to run into Barry Manilow or something here while I was walking the strip, but you’re the next best thing, running into you, Bryan, so thank you.
Bryan Biniak:
Yeah, my pleasure. Well, last night on my way to dinner, I got to see Elvis checking into the hotel. Maybe we’ll see somebody at lunch today.
Buzz Knight:
How did he look, by the way?
Bryan Biniak:
He had a very nice spray-on tan.
Buzz Knight:
Good luck on smart radio, Bryan Biniak from Connected Travel. Thank you.
Bryan Biniak:
Thank you.
Buzz Knight:
Well, my god, I happen to be walking around here at the NAB in Las Vegas, and on Taking A Walk, one of my dearest friends, Ruth Presslaff. It’s so nice to see you, Ruth.
Ruth Presslaff:
Oh, Buzz. What a treat.
Buzz Knight:
I mean, for me, one of the great things is meeting new people with Taking A Walk, but one of the even better things is-
Ruth Presslaff:
Don’t use the word old, my friend.
Buzz Knight:
… regrouping with old friends.
Ruth Presslaff:
That works.
Buzz Knight:
And this is so special. Ruth, it’s great to see you. Now, I just saw you recently… and a little context for the vast audience of Taking A Walk, especially the worldwide audience. We’re very big in Croatia for some reason and Czechoslovakia. But Ruth was with me when I was in LA and we were Taking A Walk with the great Ed Begley, Jr.
Ruth Presslaff:
That was a treat.
Buzz Knight:
We went over to his house and Ruth was there to take some snaps of that episode, and it was very special to have you along. Wasn’t he special, though, too?
Ruth Presslaff:
You know, he was so warm and so cordial, and he mentioned something that his father taught him in terms of not what are you against, what are you for? And I loved that. And I have been thinking about that ever since. That was a teachable moment. It was great.
Buzz Knight:
But what a guy who had like-
Ruth Presslaff:
Everything.
Buzz Knight:
… just a tremendous energy about him.
Ruth Presslaff:
Yes.
Buzz Knight:
Right?
Ruth Presslaff:
Yes.
Buzz Knight:
And I mean, among many favorite lines, I ask him the dorky question, “Ed, who that you haven’t worked with would you like to work with?”
Ruth Presslaff:
Oh, that’s right. Right. He’s like, “Oh, there’s a grip over on the Burbank lot number seven.”
Buzz Knight:
“There’s a boom operator, too, that I haven’t worked with.” And I was like, “Oh man, he got me.” Right?
Ruth Presslaff:
Yeah.
Buzz Knight:
Which was so much-
Ruth Presslaff:
It was really funny.
Buzz Knight:
… so much fun. But it’s nice to see you in Las Vegas. NAB’s going on, but you are involved with work that I think is part of NAB, but kind of is its own entity. Talk about the mentoring work that you’re part of and others are part of for women in broadcasting.
Ruth Presslaff:
I am president of the board of an organization called Mentoring and Inspiring Women in Radio, Inc. And I’m really going to stress that Inc because we’ve been around for a long time, but last year we became a 501(c)(3), and that’s a game-changer. We have an incredible board. They are women who are in this business. We’ve got senior people from Odyssey and from Radio 1 and from IMES and from Luminate, and Corinne Baldassano, who’s been in this business forever, one of the first women program directors in the country. Erica Farber, who’s head of the RAB. And we are all there to help other women in the business. After years and years and years and years of running my own company and doing all the business stuff, to be able to be here, to celebrate the work that we’re doing. We had a huge sold out dinner last night and just a lot of support and a lot of momentum. And it is a gratifying thing and wonderful to be able to put energy into.
Buzz Knight:
It’s great work, and it is a great energy of people, all different types of people, from small markets, medium markets, large markets, and it is such important work. At the core of it, how can women considering getting in broadcasting be more encouraged to be part of the business?
Ruth Presslaff:
There are a couple of things. First of all, go to radiomiw.com, if I can put that plug squarely in there. This business needs new talent, and so there are a lot of different programs. There’s NABETH. We just gave the Trailblazer Award to Michelle Duke. She runs all the stuff for the NAB around diversity, inclusion equity, and also has programs for really bringing new people in. A lot of what we focus on are senior women in the business and how do we get them higher up? We do an annual gender analysis study and we celebrate, “Oh my gosh, look at this. We grew half a percentage in program directors.” There are so few women program directors and women make up more than half of the listening audience. And you are going to quote me on this and you shouldn’t, but I think it’s like 12% of the program directors. It’s just like… It’s an anemic number and if I’m off by a factor of… If it’s 24%, it’s still an anemic number, but it’s a really low number.
Buzz Knight:
Right.
Ruth Presslaff:
We really look at… and I always hammer this… we really look at how can we help women in this business succeed because it’s good for the women and it’s good for the business? You don’t want to hemorrhage any more talent than we already are losing. And so if you can get somebody who’s got a lot of talent… and we’ve got so many women that we’ve mentored who have so much talent… and keep them in the business, instead of taking their incredible skills and enthusiasm and saying, “There’s no place for me here,” that’s a win for everybody. That’s a win for every company and that’s a win for the individual.
Buzz Knight:
And I think the daunting nature of the business in general, and then add in the fact that if you’re a female and you’re in a daunting business, this nudge, this encouragement, this inclusion is, I think, more critical than ever, right? I mean…
Ruth Presslaff:
I can’t believe we’re still having… and I don’t mean we’re still having this conversation Taking A Walk… but I mean, I can’t believe as a society we’re still having this conversation.
Buzz Knight:
Right.
Ruth Presslaff:
And I can’t believe as a society, I’m still hearing the same I’ll say stuff happening to these women. It’s been happening for like ever. And we’re still having that same conversation. Give me a break.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. I don’t get it. I think it’s a tone-deaf nature of stuff, and I think it’s a tone-deaf nature of society as well. But I feel like when I think of what probably is going on at the university, college level, it still feels like within university and colleges, there can be more done there to make it a better path for women in media and in broadcasting in general. How can that happen? How can there be a more productive path in the educational institutions?
Ruth Presslaff:
I think there’s a lot to be said for role models. I think there’s a lot to be said for aspirations, for seeing someone in a position and saying, “That’s what I want to do.” And then just being able to form the relationships, to not only see someone and say, “I could model my career after that person,” but to know their story, to understand that they started as an assistant, they started as an account exec somewhere. They started humbly, and how much they had to work and what they had to do to get where they got.
Buzz Knight:
Well, as someone who started your own business, you also understand not only as the entrepreneur side of things where resilience comes in, but now you see it from your other vantage point with your MIW work, where resilience is mandatory, unfortunately. I hate to put it that way, but it’s mandatory for women to stick with this business. Is that wrong?
Ruth Presslaff:
You know, I’ll widen it. I think that’s true on the entire gender spectrum. I think resiliency, I think grit, I think tenacity, I think problem-solving. When people take what’s different about you and make that the issue, that’s a problem. And I love this business. I don’t care. If you’re someone who has a great idea and can execute it, if you’re a problem-solver, if you are someone who can build teams, if you’re someone who can bounce and recover from everything the last couple of years have brought our way, I don’t care if you’re a woman. I don’t care if I don’t care where you are on the gender spectrum. I just need your help and I need your energy and I need you as part of our business.
Ruth Presslaff:
And so to me, a lot of it is also just clear out the hurdles. Don’t make it difficult for someone to succeed whose very success is going to help your company. Why do we shoot ourselves in the foot and say, “Well, I don’t know about that person,” and still get the “Are you pregnant? Are you going to get pregnant? I can’t hire these young women.” And it’s like, are you kidding me?
Buzz Knight:
Well, like you said, I can’t believe we’re still unfortunately having to have the conversation, but we need to have the conversation because it’s still at issue. But I thank you for that work that you’re doing, and…
Ruth Presslaff:
Absolutely my pleasure.
Buzz Knight:
I thank you for being a pal and I thank you for Taking A Walk.
Ruth Presslaff:
Love it, Buzz. What a treat to see you in Los Angeles and Las Vegas. We’ll keep the L cities going.
Buzz Knight:
And what would be next? Don’t say Lubbock.
Ruth Presslaff:
I’m not.
Buzz Knight:
I don’t think we have any listeners that I last checked in Lubbock, but we’ll take them from anywhere.
Ruth Presslaff:
Well, we won’t now. Lisbon.
Buzz Knight:
We won’t narrowcast it. Lubbock must be beautiful. Lisbon?
Ruth Presslaff:
Let’s do Lisbon.
Buzz Knight:
Love it.
Ruth Presslaff:
Done.
Buzz Knight:
Love it or Lisbon.
Ruth Presslaff:
I think instead of what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, we’re going to market love it or Lisbon.
Buzz Knight:
Thanks, Ruth. Well, my. I’m just sort of wandering here in Las Vegas near the Westgate Hotel, and lo and behold, I bump into my dear friend, Fred Jacobs. It’s so great to see you here at the NAB 2022. How are you, Fred?
Fred Jacobs:
I’m good, Buzz. And it is actually nice to be back after three years of nothingness. And now, I mean, how many Zoom calls have we been on? Right? And yet I haven’t seen you in two years, and it’s just nice to be back with people.
Buzz Knight:
It is. I mean, it’s great to be seen. It’s great to see people. I mean, maybe some people-
Fred Jacobs:
Not so much, right? No, not so much.
Buzz Knight:
No, I’m kidding. But you know, Vegas, the scene of many of our crimes when it comes to coming to the Consumer Electronics Show every January, so we love Vegas.
Fred Jacobs:
We do in this context. I mean, normally no, but at a big convention like this, it is cool. You see a lot of people. If you take the time, you learn some stuff, you see some gear and you just sort of pick up on stuff. It’s cliche, but it’s a good networking thing.
Buzz Knight:
By the way, that real sound that the listeners all across the globe are hearing is the monorail that’s passing by.
Fred Jacobs:
Which is a great thing, by the way. I took it over here and I’ve become a real monorail fan in Vegas, as opposed to Ubers and taxicabs and god forbid walking, because everything is so far away and it appears to be a lot closer.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. Is this somebody we know, we’re going to bump into?
Fred Jacobs:
It is a similar face. Yes.
Buzz Knight:
Oh, this is terrific. This is what we call happenstance as we’re Taking A Walk, the other Jacobs. You could speak, Paul Jacobs. Hello, Paul.
Paul Jacobs:
Buzz, how are you?
Buzz Knight:
Good. We’re Taking A Walk.
Paul Jacobs:
And you’re walking.
Buzz Knight:
We’re walking and-
Paul Jacobs:
We’re Taking A Walk.
Buzz Knight:
One of the beautiful things is when happenstance happens and we bump into people, and bumping into you is terrific as well.
Paul Jacobs:
And most people would say I’m a lot better than a bird pooping on your shoulder-
Buzz Knight:
Wow.
Paul Jacobs:
… while you’re Taking A Walk.
Buzz Knight:
Wow. Now that you mention it-
Paul Jacobs:
Who would say that, by the way?
Fred Jacobs:
Not me. Not me.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a nice lunch inside the Westgate?
Paul Jacobs:
Absolutely. And I had a great view of you as we were eating, and you were much more interesting than my turkey burger.
Buzz Knight:
I scarfed down some fabulous matzoh ball soup.
Fred Jacobs:
Nothing like Sid’s Cafe. It’s legend.
Paul Jacobs:
Ah, come on. It’s a Vegas meal.
Buzz Knight:
Oh, Fred, should we keep your brother as part of this?
Fred Jacobs:
Sure.
Buzz Knight:
I think so. Could you have time?
Paul Jacobs:
Yeah. I have a few minutes.
Buzz Knight:
This is perfect. In my wildest dream-
Fred Jacobs:
Nobody’s going to believe this actually happened, but this was totally unplanned.
Buzz Knight:
This actually happened. First of all, the concept of Taking A Walk is something that I think about you two gentlemen, because I know for fact that there are many times to sort of clear your head and to work out ideas that you boys, you Jacobs boys, like to take a walk. Is that right?
Paul Jacobs:
Oh, we’re famous walkers. In our old days, two years ago, three years ago, we used to walk every Saturday and Sunday for hours and do half marathons and things like that. And it’s great. You do a half marathon and you get a lot of business done. It’s really kind of a true thing.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah. COVID slowed us down for a variety of reasons. Paul actually has continued his walking and walked the half marathon last fall without me. I’m kind of trying to work my way back up to it, but actually being at this conference, I’ve probably logged more miles in the last 48 hours than I have in the last 48 months.
Paul Jacobs:
No doubt in bad shoes.
Fred Jacobs:
In bad shoes, yeah. Good point.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. It helps you guys, not only fitness-wise, but idea generation, problem-solving, right?
Paul Jacobs:
Totally. Totally. It gets the juices flowing.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah. And we argue with each other, but in only the best way. But I mean, we go at it in a constructive way and we push each other really hard and it’s cool. It’s a great process. I mean, we’ve been working together for so long, we kind of have it down. I mean, even when we get pissed off at each other, like 10 minutes later, it’s like, “So where do you want to have lunch?”
Paul Jacobs:
Right. It’s like a good marriage.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah. That’s exactly right.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. Well, and I might say some of the places that you probably are able to take a walk in are certainly favorite places of mine. Like this place, Birmingham, Michigan, that you guys know pretty well. Right?
Paul Jacobs:
There’s nothing like Birmingham. Of course, as we’re sitting here walking through the Westgate here in Vegas, trust me, I’d rather be in Birmingham.
Buzz Knight:
It sounds like a bumper sticker.
Fred Jacobs:
Totally.
Paul Jacobs:
Yeah.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah. You’re right. But yeah. We like to just pretty much air it out anywhere we go, and it’s a great… I mean, we’re so lucky to have each other. I mean, as kids, we were not particularly close, but as adults, we’ve been working together for decades now and we know each other’s moves, so it’s a great process.
Buzz Knight:
You weren’t close? Stop there for a second.
Paul Jacobs:
Well, no, we-
Buzz Knight:
Weren’t close as kids?
Paul Jacobs:
Not at all.
Buzz Knight:
Are you kidding me?
Fred Jacobs:
Not really. I mean-
Buzz Knight:
This is new news to me.
Fred Jacobs:
I mean, we got along, but we weren’t tight. There’s three and a half years difference. Yes, I’m older. Let’s get that out of the way. But no, we really were in different circles and we were different kinds of people. And even today, I mean, I’m programming, he’s sales. We come at it from different sides of the radio spectrum, right?
Paul Jacobs:
Let me put it differently. He thought I was a stupid jock and he thought he was some grand intellectual. And he was really right about both.
Buzz Knight:
Wow. This is way too much truth.
Paul Jacobs:
And here’s the breaking point.
Buzz Knight:
We call it therapy.
Fred Jacobs:
Oh, yeah. I feel under the… Yeah, go ahead, Paul.
Paul Jacobs:
Here’s the breaking point.
Buzz Knight:
Finish, Paul. Go ahead.
Paul Jacobs:
I was at Michigan State. Fred was going to get his masters in Michigan State, and part of the thing was he had to teach the hardest course in the radio department, Radio 201. And it was a hard course and it’s what weeded out everybody. I had to take the course.
Fred Jacobs:
From me.
Paul Jacobs:
From Fred. He kicked my ass. Okay? It was unbelievable, but I put my jock hat on and I was like, “I’m going to ace this class to show him.” And I did. And that was probably the beginning of the break.
Fred Jacobs:
It was, Paul, but we were there for four years, and if we enjoyed four meals with each other during that time when we weren’t at home, that’s probably a lot. It’s not like we hung out with each other.
Paul Jacobs:
No, no.
Fred Jacobs:
Or any of that.
Paul Jacobs:
Except at the radio production studio.
Fred Jacobs:
Exactly. I saw him more there, but once we both got into the industry, it tightened up, and then obviously when we started working together every day.
Paul Jacobs:
Working at RIF was great, though.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah.
Paul Jacobs:
I mean…
Fred Jacobs:
You’re right about that.
Paul Jacobs:
And Fred was this totally intense, brilliant program director. Ponytail, right? If he could.
Fred Jacobs:
At times.
Paul Jacobs:
And I was the arrogant, successful sales guy. And what happened was, I decided since I had access to the program director and I thought my poop didn’t stink, I would occasionally walk into Fred’s office and go “You know? Third track on Seger Live, you should be playing it.” And after about the fifth time I did that, Fred uttered the famous words.
Fred Jacobs:
“Shut up and make goal.”
Paul Jacobs:
And that probably really laid the predicate for us working together, because we began to realize that we came at problems completely differently, but it worked together, and we wound up doing great stuff at RIF, great promotions.
Fred Jacobs:
Oh my god.
Paul Jacobs:
Great. Oh, it was unbelievable.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah, but-
Buzz Knight:
I would say legendary.
Fred Jacobs:
Well, that’s kind but the other thing that has happened, though, is that we’ve kind of become each other. You can ask our wives and they will affirm, but I’ve learned a lot about sales over the years from him and he’s-
Buzz Knight:
We’ll let the monorail go by.
Fred Jacobs:
And he’s become a really strong programmer. I mean, he understands content and the product, and so if you’ll excuse the expression… Wow. A bird has joined us.
Paul Jacobs:
Oh wow.
Fred Jacobs:
Paul has really kind of riffed his way into being a strong resource for me.
Paul Jacobs:
It’s go figure. I think he’s going to keep me.
Fred Jacobs:
Oh, boy, let’s sing kumbaya together.
Buzz Knight:
How many years has it been?
Paul Jacobs:
30? This is 32-
Fred Jacobs:
I think something like that.
Paul Jacobs:
… in the fall.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah.
Buzz Knight:
Wow. You guys should be so proud.
Fred Jacobs:
We are.
Buzz Knight:
You are?
Fred Jacobs:
Our mother’s prouder, but yeah.
Paul Jacobs:
She still has no clue what we do.
Fred Jacobs:
No, but the fact we do it together is kind of a thing.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. She prob probably brings a smile, right?
Paul Jacobs:
Yeah. I think what she thinks about it.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah. Right. Not like it’s on the top of her tongue, Buzz.
Buzz Knight:
Does she still… Let’s move away from that bird.
Fred Jacobs:
I know. It’s really annoying.
Buzz Knight:
Does she still refer to you as boys, you boys?
Fred Jacobs:
You know what, Buzz? She still gives us money on our birthdays and I don’t even want to tell you how old we are. But in my case, the first digit starts with a seven. And I said to her this year for my birthday, as she handed me the check, “Mom, at what point do you stop giving me birthday checks? It’s kind of embarrassing.” And she said “Never.” Isn’t that cool?
Buzz Knight:
That is so cool. Oh, it brings a smile to my face.
Fred Jacobs:
I wish she gave more, but it’s-
Buzz Knight:
Come on now.
Fred Jacobs:
It’s the thought that counts.
Buzz Knight:
Paul is checking his phone, so I want to make sure we capitalize on his time here.
Paul Jacobs:
It’s the NAB. I have a meeting.
Buzz Knight:
Okay. Well, we’re at the NAB, so in the big scope of things, what’s the biggest issue haunting, right now, the radio industry? And what is the most exciting thing in the works for the radio industry? First question is the daunting one.
Fred Jacobs:
I have to actually think about the Gen Z thing and the fact that we have absolutely zero plan in place as an industry. And it’s really no one’s priority that we think about these generations that really don’t have very much to do with radio, and aren’t just going to come around when they’re adults. That’s, what’s keeping me up at night is how are we going to appeal to today’s teenagers? And how can we get young people interested in this as a career like we were. That’s my thing.
Paul Jacobs:
I’ll be glass-half-full sales guy.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah.
Paul Jacobs:
I think radio has actually made steady, slow strides in digital. I think when you look at the revenue and you look at the engagement and you begin to look at the content, I mean we’re not killing it, but we are fixing the plane at 35,000 feet, I think better than we were five years ago. And it’s not the salvation, but it’s clearly… That is to me the healthiest thing that’s going on right now.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah. I feel like we have a foothold, finally, and that we’re not like convincing broadcasters that they need to be thinking about this. I think they’re there. It’s just some are taking longer to get there than others. I mean, change is a bitch. It’s hard to take organizations that have been kind of doing it the same way successfully for decades, and all of a sudden have to implement entirely new processes. It’s difficult. But I agree with you. I think it’s getting there. It just took so damn long.
Paul Jacobs:
Oh my god. We had to go a decade of radio shouldn’t stream, and it’s like, “Get out.” And I mean, radio as an industry, because it doesn’t speak in one voice and doesn’t collaborate, has missed so many big think opportunities, whether it is with the car in representing ourselves to the auto industry. I mean, honestly, why didn’t we invent Pandora? Why is all this audio stuff happening?
Fred Jacobs:
Why didn’t we buy Pandora when they were on their knees? Wouldn’t that have been smart? I mean…
Buzz Knight:
It’s not too late, because they’re further on [inaudible 00:40:09].
Fred Jacobs:
Actually. I was going to say-
Paul Jacobs:
Just got cheaper.
Fred Jacobs:
Sirius XM’s kind of not done a real good job with that. You’re right. We could probably do an Elon Musk here and pick it up at a discount.
Paul Jacobs:
Yeah.
Fred Jacobs:
Right? You know what? You got any money, Buzz? Maybe we-
Buzz Knight:
I’ve got some pocket change from the casino. Okay. Last question. How was the Barry Manilow show?
Fred Jacobs:
Do you have time for a story?
Buzz Knight:
Of course.
Paul Jacobs:
Can I sing Can’t Smile Without You in the background?
Fred Jacobs:
No, listen. The very first radio show, Rick Sklar, who was the programming guy at WABC and in the ABC Group, was on the programming committee for the NAB Radio Show, and it was Rick’s job to book the entertainment. And so he booked Barry Manilow. And this was in Chicago and all of us program directors, all seven of us, were all rock guys, and Rick told us that we had a table right in front of the stage and gave us strict instructions. “You guys are to go. You are not to walk out in the middle of the show. You don’t have to enjoy Barry Manilow, but you have to respect him.” And we said, “Okay.”
Fred Jacobs:
And we all went to the show and meanwhile, Barry Manilow kicked ass. I mean, it was such a great show. And it’s like one of those concerts where you go, “I forgot this guy had so many hits and he’s such a professional.” And the girls were pretty. I mean, there’s a lot of scenery, but it actually turned out to be a great show and I hear he still bring brings it. And he’s here at the Westgate where you are.
Buzz Knight:
He is here at the Westgate. He did cancel because of this COVID thing for a few days.
Fred Jacobs:
Oh he did? I didn’t know that.
Buzz Knight:
He did. Yeah. I was actually, I kid you not, working on him as a special guest, but it didn’t come together. But-
Fred Jacobs:
It’s too bad. That would’ve been cool. He’s got better stories than we do.
Paul Jacobs:
We just have radio stories.
Buzz Knight:
Yeah. Oh, come on. Well, listen, this has made the trip worthwhile. Now it’s going to be usurped later by probably Jim Gaffigan’s performance. But this has made the trip so far.
Paul Jacobs:
Let me tell you something. We were originally scheduled to be Jim Gaffigan’s warmup act on The Agenda.
Fred Jacobs:
That’s right. There was-
Paul Jacobs:
Our panel was supposed to lead into Jim Gaffigan and we’re like, “No, don’t do that to us.
Buzz Knight:
That would be awful.
Fred Jacobs:
Imagine how awful that would be. Yes.
Buzz Knight:
That would be rough.
Fred Jacobs:
But Paul’s right. They told us, “Yeah, you guys go right after Gaffigan,” and it’s like, are you kidding me? No. Maybe if we went before him, I mean, I could see us being the opening act that people threw stuff at, but never.
Paul Jacobs:
Oh yeah. Who are these clowns?
Fred Jacobs:
Never, man.
Buzz Knight:
Well guys, thanks for Taking A Walk here at the NAB in Vegas. I look forward to episode two with you guys in Birmingham, walking the mean streets of Birmingham with you.
Fred Jacobs:
Yeah, you got to come to town. And meanwhile, all I can wish for you, Buzz, is peace, happiness, and I hope you don’t have too much editing from this.
Buzz Knight:
Oh, it’s perfect.
Paul Jacobs:
And I’ll just add one more thing. I really hope you get comfortable shoes.
Fred Jacobs:
Those look very comfortable.
Paul Jacobs:
If you’re going to be Taking A Walk, man. It’s all about [inaudible 00:43:21]
Buzz Knight:
These are comfortable. We’ll pimp for Merrells right now. Merrells, Merrells. Okay. Thanks guys.
Fred Jacobs:
Thanks for having us, Buzz.
Announcer:
Taking A Walk with Buzz Knight is available on Spotify, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
About The Author
Buzz Knight
Buzz Knight is an established media executive with a long history of content creation and multi-platform distribution.
After a successful career as a Radio Executive, he formed Buzz Knight Media which focuses on strategic guidance and the development of new original content.
