Buzz Knight [00:00:00] Welcome to Taking a Walk Music History on Foot. I’m Buzz Knight, your host. Today, we have a guest with incredible stories to tell. He’s been described as a modern day Hemingway. Ian Brennan is a Grammy winning producer whose work with the likes of Flea, Lucinda Williams, Jonathan Richman and Richard Thompson, just to name a few. His benefit concerts have raised lots of money for local charities and political causes. His recordings are called field recordings documenting life or lack thereof arising from a specific place and time. He has a new field recording project on Six Degrees records called The Oldest Voices in the World. Let’s talk with Ian Brennan next on taking a walk. Well, Ian, congratulations on the release of the oldest voice in the world. We’ve got a lot to talk about, including that. But I want to really talk about how did you become, like, the most interesting man in the world? Just like the old Dos Equis commercial. How did you get to this point of doing these amazing things?
Ian Brennan [00:01:19] Well, I thank you for the compliment. I don’t know that that’s true or that it could even be possible for someone to approach that. But certainly I feel very lucky and blessed to be able to do the things we’re doing and to continue to do the things we’re doing. We do them as money, losing labors of love. So there’s always doubt that we’ll be able to continue. You know, I’m not a trust fund kid. I’m not rich, but I’m able to make money teaching and use that money to do recordings and share voices with the world that I think are incredibly valuable and I think objectively have also great value in that there are often nations languages and people that aren’t heard from internationally with any wide support. And so it’s it’s continues to be a thrill and a joy. And on the flip side of that, sadly, there there is no shortage of underrepresented or even almost unrepresented voices around the world.
Buzz Knight [00:02:25] So how did you create the concept known as field recordings?
Ian Brennan [00:02:31] Well, I mean, the idea of field recordings has been around, you know, for a long time. It’s in fact, in many ways, it’s sort of the original recordings that was done in the late 19th century. And the word field itself has become a little bit controversial. Some people taking it quite literally to mean field as people working in fields. But it’s the scientific term that’s being used. Talking about being outside of a laboratory in the real world, in the field. But for me, having done, you know, a lot of recording for a long time in traditional multitrack studios and learning that orthodoxy and kind of being brutalized by it, the it’s very freeing to record in the original manner, which is 100% live without overdubs in most cases. I mean, it might be exceptions to that and in a specific place in time, which means usually outdoors, because the acoustics outdoors oftentimes resemble exactly the acoustics that they spend a lot of money in studios trying to create, which are acoustics that have very little reflection, because when you’re outside, you’re not within four walls and a ceiling. You don’t get that reverberation usually. So it ends up being quite a dead sound, really. But there are the elements of the environment itself that that bleed into the recording, both emotionally in the performance and also sonically.
Buzz Knight [00:04:07] And talking about some of that in studio work, you’ve worked with a range of people, everybody from Flea to Lucinda Williams to Jonathan Richman to Richard Thompson. So it’s a diverse group of people that you’ve worked from and I’m sure learned from. Is that correct?
Ian Brennan [00:04:30] Yeah, I think you’re what you just said is really the key point, is that I’ve learned from them. I’ve learned from all those experiences. I’ve learned, I think from the vast majority of people that I’ve ever met and recorded with and played music with, sometimes that’s negative lessons, you know, that you’re you’re seeing somebody engage in behaviors that you don’t want to engage in and maybe are in danger of doing it or have done it. But mostly I think it’s in positives. And a lot of those lessons are just intensification of a knowledge, something that you already know. And then it’s strengthened like, oh, okay, this really there’s something to this because you’re finding this dynamic, you know, on another continent and you’re finding this dynamic in another language. But when you talk about the artists that have these long careers, professional careers, there’s there’s good reason why they usually do. And one of those is that they tend to be quite humble. In my experience, the problems usually do not come from the stars or the superstars. I found this. The problems usually come from the little people that want to be stars and superstars and aren’t. And they’re frustrated. But the people that have managed to be around for decades and longer and, you know, people you’re naming like Sally and Richard Thompson really, really put the music. First. And I’ve really devoted their lives to that. And it shows.
Buzz Knight [00:05:59] So you have expertise in conflict resolution, which I’m sure going back to the studio probably benefited you having that expertise.
Ian Brennan [00:06:11] It’s true. It’s true. You know, I was supporting myself from my teen years on working in psychiatric settings in Oakland, California, mostly also in Los Angeles for a brief period. And, you know, though, those experiences, which oftentimes were very extreme and very repetitive, you know, you might have many crises in a single eight hour shift, didn’t have one themselves and did lend themselves very well to working with artists. In fact, some of the people I work with in some cases have been, you know, labels or agents coming to me saying, we know you can work with this person because no one else can’t. And that’s not to say I can’t either. But but often the challenges that people found in them were not so daunting to me. It’s not that I didn’t find them more difficult than the average individual, it’s just that compared to somebody who might be acutely psychotic or in a manic state or or otherwise, sometimes these problems seem quite small, and that came into great relief for me in the late nineties when I was doing a lot of benefit shows, organizing, organizing a lot of benefit shows to raise money for charity in San Francisco. And almost inevitably at these events, somebody would run up at some point in the evening and say, Oh my God, we have a crisis, we have an emergency. And normally I would have been at the psychiatric emergency room in Oakland at those exact hours, you know, which is in the evening, Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays. So they come up and they say that. And I say, what is it? And it would always be something like, we’re out of beer or there’s somebody that isn’t on the guest list. And it’s like, well, these aren’t really emergencies. So, you know, I understand people’s concern, but in a way, it became easier to to take the charge out of those things and just focus on solutions and not problems.
Buzz Knight [00:08:09] So before we talk about the oldest voice in the world, I want to talk about some of your other amazing field recording work. Let’s talk about the Zomba Prison Project as an example. How did that project get formulated and talk about the process of that immense project?
Ian Brennan [00:08:36] Well, you know, the Zomba prison project for us from my wife Marlena, , who does all the photos and video for these projects. For us, it was a very special project, but almost every single one we’ve done is. So it didn’t seem considerably different than many of the others. But certainly after the Grammy nomination, it really changed and became something larger and bigger for that period of time. It certainly was an important thing for the country of Malawi. It was the first Grammy nomination ever and the only ever 75% of the countries in Africa today still have not had a single artist nominated ever at the Grammys, which is a shame and something that hopefully will be corrected in the not so distant future over time. But we went there because we’d been in Malawi and we’d recorded we’d met the Malawi Mouse Boys, who are just an incredible vocal group. They had tremendous success considering that they were singing Institue and they were able to come to the UK and, you know, really had an impact on audiences. That was extraordinary, something I’ve rarely seen in my life. And then because of that, they were invited to Australia and New Zealand and they went there and it was the same and unfortunately it didn’t lead to a sustainable career for them. And they’re still battling poverty and they live in the Malawi Mouse Boys in a very remote region of Malawi, which at the time was the number one poorest country in the world. They live without running water and electricity. And so we were thinking about for a long time doing a, you know, a prison project, because prisoners tend to be maligned and and censored and denied all over the world. And so if there was a population that might even be more, you know, you know, unheard in Malawi, we figured, well, it must be the people in the maximum security prison. So we went there without knowing whether there would be music or not. We did know that there was a band there, so that gave us some hope. But still we didn’t know what that would be. And we got there, and it turned out that the record is made up almost entirely of people. Who did not consider themselves musicians, who do not consider themselves singers, who were not in the band, or if they were in the band, They were not the singers or songwriters in the band. Maybe they were the backup bass player or the backup drummer. And so the process itself was was amazing. And one of the things that I do remember about the project, it was and this is true of so many, but in particular, when we finished recording the women on the women’s side of the prison, which there are only 50 women out of 2000 plus prisoners, and they have their own section. Marlena and I stepped outside and we said to each other almost simultaneously, It doesn’t matter if a record ever comes from this. This was beautiful and amazing from both sides. From what? From what we were told by them and from the experience that we had. And it took over a year to get anybody to be interested in the record. And then it finally came out and it did quite well for a record from Malawi, a smaller country in a language other than English and and doing songs that were decidedly noncommercial. And The New York Times wrote a piece about it, and Vice wrote a piece about it. And there were a few little things here and there. There was a piece in a major French music magazine, and that was January and that was that. And then almost a year later, the Grammy nominations came around, and that was a year where we had done, I think, more records than any single year that had been released, something like six or seven. And of those records, I think it might have been the last one I would have assumed or picked would get nominated, if any. And it got nominated and and it just snowballed from there. But those individuals were incredibly talented. In particular, in particular, Bonomo who wrote the ballads on each record is just a talent that that is transcendent. Somebody who’s not just good but is in that zone. It’s hard to be better than you know, it’s not a competition, but just he reaches a point musically that that very few people ever do.
Buzz Knight [00:13:03] Can you describe the feeling you and your wife have when you first hear some of this amazing music at that first moment?
Ian Brennan [00:13:14] Yeah, I think it’s just such a thrill win win it because increasingly a lot of planning goes into it. When we started doing this in 2009, it was much more on the fly and more and more because we’re traveling with our daughter, you know, traveling with her when she was one and when she was two, and now she’s six. And and the logistics become more complicated. Some of the populations we’ve been reaching recently are more difficult to reach, you know, like places that can be reached only by boat or or, you know, by offroad driving for 12 hours. We just came back from such a project. And so I think there’s there’s a level of relief. But ultimately, joy, when after all of that, this leap of faith is rewarded, which is you don’t even know if there’s going to be music. You don’t know what it’s going to be. But our faith is that there is music everywhere. We’re listening to certain people too much and repetitively. The star system wants that and, you know, helps, you know, promote that and generate that. But in reality, there’s music and everybody, you know, it’s a continuum. It’s not to say that that every single person is as gifted as Prince. I mean, there are extraordinary people such as he, but everybody’s got music. And and for people to be more active in that process, I think is healthier for them and healthier for society. And if we truly believe in diversity, then we should be listening to as many different voices as possible.
Buzz Knight [00:14:46] When you think of helping the prison system anywhere, any country, do you see an application here that could just transcend the project and be a benefit in other prison reform?
Ian Brennan [00:15:04] Well, you hope so. I mean, we did help to get some people released, you know, from from Zomba. We also tried to get other people released and they’ve not. Yeah. And, you know, now it’s been, I mean, almost a decade since we were there. And that’s that’s very saddening. But sure, I think humanizing one another is is never going to not benefit us. You know, that we are able to see individuals as individuals and see people in all their complexity, their good and their bad, and to hopefully foreground forgiveness, which is something I think largely we’re lacking now. I think that things have become very binary and very, very primitive. The way like people think they’re living in a modern world because they’re using modern devices. But a lot of the psychology behind it and the emotions behind it are are very, very, very black and white. And that’s not beneficial to any of us really are survival. And so, you know, we look at the United States. I mean, it has now, some say, the highest incarceration rate in the world. And the conditions in some of the prisons and some of the states are quite horrific. And the conditions in Malawi were that and in many other places in the world are that. And sometimes it’s intentional because people feel like they deserve it. Yet what’s not factored into that equation when you take the morality or the philosophy out of it, is that a fair number of people are innocent and a fair number of people are being held there without yet even being proven guilty, and they’re living in those conditions. So in Zomba, they would sleep 60 to a room that was about I think it was 18 by 20. So 60 people would sleep in that room. And that literally meant they had to sleep on top of each other like sardines. So if you wanted to turn, you could only turn when everybody else turned and you could not get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom without risking your personal safety. So it’s not a very comfortable way to live. It’s a it’s a it’s a way of living that I think we can’t even imagine. And we’re talking about people doing that in some cases, ostensibly for the rest of their lives, people that are sentenced there for life.
Buzz Knight [00:17:37] When you go into a situation such as the zombie project, how do you sort of decipher the voices that want to be heard versus maybe the voices that shouldn’t be heard? Is there is this just an instinct that you have? Well.
Ian Brennan [00:17:56] You know, I think that there is a basic barometer of truth. You can you can feel and most of us can. What I found in general is that the people that that most want to be heard are the people that tend to be the least interesting. And the people that are the most reluctant oftentimes are the ones that really are treasures. And so that happened in Zomba. It happened at the witch camp in Ghana, you know, where not only is it maybe someone who is doesn’t consider themselves a singer is resistant to sharing their voice, but maybe other people are even obstructing that say, no, no, no, no. She can’t sing like like no, you know, No, no, no, no, no, no. Not her. And then other people putting themselves forward. So again, we just got back from a project and a person showed up uninvited. And I could tell almost immediately that that this was not somebody that would be interesting to listen to, you know, just because his attitude was, I mean, number one, that he showed up and invited. But but beyond that, he had a very, you know, arrogant, aggressive attitude and a very adolescent attitude, which is basically he came there, but then he acted like he wasn’t interested. And it’s like, well, you know, this this is not the person that we’re really here to listen to. The people we’re here to listen to are the people that are, you know, meek and afraid to share their voice. And then suddenly they share something that’s so incredibly intimate and beautiful. And it’s when that happens, it’s it’s just one of the most incredible experiences, I think, that that I’ve ever had. And yet it’s happened so many times and it’s almost always happened with those individuals. And it’s not fake humility like, Oh, me? Well, you know, this is people that are really like, na na na, really Me You want to hear me? I’m not a singer. And then they sing. And the vast majority of the time, their voices are incredibly interesting and their stories are are spellbinding and poignant.
Buzz Knight [00:20:01] So the the new project, the oldest voice in the world. Thank you for bringing me back to the sky. Talk about this project, how you came up with the idea and how the process began to create this project.
Ian Brennan [00:20:19] Yeah, well, you know, Azerbaijan is another country that a lot of people don’t know a lot about, maybe have not heard of. And what we’ve done with so many of these projects is important, and that is that is working an important point, and that is that we’re working with people within those nations that might be underrepresented, that are minoritized within their own nation, that are oftentimes singing in a foreign language within their own land. And so the people that we’re working with on that record are the townspeople. And they are a have a region that is split between Iran and Azerbaijan. So in the mountains, that house mountains, they’re living a very different lifestyle. People in the city, which the city is incredibly modern and, you know, there’s a lot of money there. There’s a lot of natural resources. It’s a beautiful capital city, you know, more fancier than most places. You’ll you’ll visit. And you go a few hours south and up into the mountains. And people are living, you know, riding on donkeys and live in a rural life without running water and without electricity in a lot of cases. And that’s where we went. So we’re hearing from people that are maligned and the minoritized within their own nations. And oftentimes, again, people will say, well, you don’t want to go there. I mean, we were told that. Why do you want to go there? It’s ugly there. You should go to the north. That’s where it’s beautiful. You should go here. They’ve got great, you know, wine country or, you know, they were giving us all this advice, like, why would you want to go up there? And yet, when you talk to them about it a little bit more deeply, you find that they’ve never been there themselves. Just straight up prejudiced. You know, that this is their knowledge. And their knowledge is based on no knowledge. And yet that lack of knowledge gets gets repeated and becomes fact to so many people. And so, you know, when we recorded in northern Ghana, the witch camps, Ghana is a vibrant nation and has a lot of incredible things in the capital city in particular. But it’s a huge nation physically and in the north it’s a very different world and where the most of the witch camps are. And while we were there, we recorded with a group that was called Ra Ra from the Free for Our People and the Frog for our Language. And the leader, small, sadly passed away last year, but incredible musician, incredible singer, incredible songwriter. The energy of somebody, you know, 20, 30 years younger than he was, I mean, and he literally looked 20 or 30 years younger than he was. But again, they’re singing in a language that less than 3% of the people in their nation speak and understand. And they’re seen in this language that is the only language they know. So even though English is spoken widely there because of the colonialist history in a lot of people, bilingual or trilingual, they were not. And even though there’s the dominant language for the country that is spoken mostly in the South, they don’t speak that either. So they’re at a real disadvantage. And the townspeople in Azerbaijan, it was similar. So we went there because that region is known for longevity. Supposedly, the oldest man recorded one man to live was from there. He died in the seventies. He was supposed to have been 168 when he passed away. There have been other people that are from there that they claim to be 145, 150. You know, they call them super centenarians. So not just not just somebody who’s made 100, but made it well past 100. So we figured, well, these are these are voices to hear from. And as an act of anti ageism, I mean, that’s really it is that, you know, all the focus on youth and the visual focus of most modern music, where a lot of the musical artists now are much more engaged in visuals than they are in sound. They don’t sound that different from one another. But you know, all it’s always about the video and the style and the symbolism. So as an antidote to that, we figured, well, you know, let’s not just listen to people that are older, which we try to do on every project as much as possible. We want to hear from the women versus the men. We want to hear from the elders versus the people that are younger. And so in this case, we’re really going further in. That is people that are over 100 years old. And so we went there in search of that. And again, these were almost exclusively people that did not consider themselves singers, that were not songwriters. And yet the voices are incredibly unique and in revealing. And courageous. And so it’s it’s unlike anything I’ve ever heard before. And it was, you know, incredibly moving, but also, you know, a learning process to meet these individuals, even if it was for short periods of time.
Buzz Knight [00:25:20] So I know there’s one song in particular that caught my eye, but many of them did. But this one caught my eye. My life is good. It is like a flower. The simplicity of of the statement and the song and the beauty just radiate.
Ian Brennan [00:25:40] Yeah. I really you know, there’s there’s that element of almost haiku, you know, the simplicity. But the beauty of, I think, a lot of folk poetry. There’s another song on the record where the it’s is two lines and it’s you’re like a bird, you love to fly. And that is so much better than the majority of song lyrics. You know, there doesn’t need to be more. You know, it’s so well written, you can improve upon what it is. It’s just beautiful. And so, yeah, that’s that’s great. I think that you you notice that because to me, it’s it it was striking as well. I mean, just this is this is poetry.
Buzz Knight [00:26:28] Another one. Mother, why did you leave me so soon?
Ian Brennan [00:26:33] Yeah. It’s one of the things, maybe one of the most unexpected things and one of the most poignant things was how many of them talked about and sang about their own mothers. You know, that they were still feeling that loss even when they were past 100 years of age.
Buzz Knight [00:26:53] And then the words of advice to the one son, don’t go there. The road is dangerous.
Ian Brennan [00:27:00] Yes. Yeah. And the roads there can be very dangerous. The roads there are, you know, snowy, icy, most of all muddy and steep. We got stuck in the mud on on one of those roads. And it was it was it went from seeming, you know, not it didn’t seem like a particularly bad road. And the next moment it got scary. Scary very quickly.
Buzz Knight [00:27:26] So talk about the fact that you’re able to find Six Degrees Records and work with a label that has no commercial expectations whatsoever.
Ian Brennan [00:27:41] Yeah, I mean, six Degrees has been around now for more than 25 years and they follow their hearts. And that never became clear to me then was on the present because my history with them was that they started the year that I started doing a free weekly show, acoustic show in a laundromat in San Francisco. I did it for five years every Monday night.
Buzz Knight [00:28:07] Is this the Lives de Lives nude bands? Is that what we’re doing?
Ian Brennan [00:28:11] Oh, this is that was one of the benefit shows is this was an unscripted live from the laundromat. And so every week I would have a different guest from the local music scene and and record them. That’s where I started really doing field recordings unintentionally. So actually and learning a little bit about recording because I wasn’t an engineer, I’m still not really. I do it out of necessity and but I started doing that at the same year. They found the label in San Francisco where, you know, I was born and raised in the Bay Area my whole life I’d been there nowhere else and there was this label and they became successful. And yet, you know, I basically they had no interest in what I was doing ostensibly. Finally, about ten years later, someone I knew introduced me to to one of the people at the label, and they agreed to meet with me, I think a little reluctantly not, you know, like the end. And not that they were like and they were ambivalent, I think, but but they were willing to meet with me. And so I met with them and and so we became friendly. And this was the time that I, we moved overseas. So when I would come back to work, but once a year, I’d go see them and I’d say, Hey, there’s there’s this project. And they check it out and they say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s not for us. And I’d meet with them again and say, Oh, well, there’s this project in that project. And they say, Oh yeah, yeah, interesting. And no, no, no, that’s not for us. And so this went on for years. And finally one time we went to their offices and we went around the corner for coffee. We did the ritual, we talked about life and, you know, really good people and spent a little time together. And I told them what I was doing and they were like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s that’s not going to work. And I kind of reached that point, but I felt like, Well, I know it’s lovely to meet with them on a personal level, but I don’t think this is ever going to go anywhere. And as we were walking back to their offices, which is just a few blocks away, they said, What else are you working on? And I said, Oh, we just we went to this we went to this prison in Malawi and, you know, recorded the men and women there in the maximum security prison. And he said, that’s something I’d want to hear. And I’m like, Really? Really? That’s something you want. Okay, I guess I’ve been going about this all wrong. So I sent I sent Bob the music, and the next day he told me immediately, immediate response said, We have to do this record. We will lose money doing this, but we have to do this. We have a responsibility to do this record. And for me, that sums up everything about Bob and everything about the label.
Buzz Knight [00:30:54] But it’s also your compass, too, that leads that charge as well.
Ian Brennan [00:31:00] Well, yeah, I guess. I’m not sure. My compass, as always, is always right. But. But I do in hindsight, look back on 90 something percent of what we’ve done and stand by it fully. And that’s always been our practice when we do this is that we record a lot of things we don’t put out and we go places not knowing what we’re going to find. So if we put something out, we believe in it. And so I have no issue with people not liking it. But when people take issue with it as if it’s objectively lacking in some way, it’s like, no, no, no, this is this is intentional. These records are intentional. And most of them are on rock records, their roots records. They’re folk records, they’re experimental records. Oftentimes, they’re avant garde records in many cases as well. And a lot of that doesn’t sit well with the sort of the traditional world music, global music orthodoxy who are still coming from that place of of tradition. And this is what music from this country is supposed to sound like. And no, we’re not interested in any of that. We’re interested in the birth of sounds and we’re interested in hearing voices that we’ve not heard before. And so for me, the ultimate barometer is when somebody sings, and it doesn’t sound like anybody I’ve ever heard before, that’s an exceptional experience, because the vast majority of commercial music, the person sounds like an amalgam of five people or exactly like a singer, you know, And instead you hear somebody that doesn’t sound like anybody you’ve heard before. It’s like that has to have value. If you value diversity and it’s not about liking it or not liking it, It’s just here’s a language that I’ve never heard a record from before. Original music from hears a voice that sounds unlike any voice I’ve ever heard before. It’s not a voice for everybody. But how can that not be something that should be celebrated or supported to some degree? And John and Amina from to Djibouti, which is a country that a lot of people don’t know is less than a million people. It’s smaller. She’s one of those people that she has one of the most original voices I’ve ever heard. But it’s a voice that for a lot of people would be like, you know, nails on a chalkboard. They would think that she’s out of control and that and that it’s not intentional. But in fact, you can listen to her sing the same song ten times and it’s the same every time. I mean, she knows what she’s doing and she’s she’s playing with the edge of chaos similarly to, you know, someone like, you know, a free jazz player, you know, Ornette Coleman or someone of that nature who, again, you can’t expect the average person to like that. And they’re not wrong to not like it. It’s just that the music we’re making is decidedly noncommercial. It’s not meant for everybody. But when people do connect with it, it’s usually on a very deep level. And I would much rather that one person falls in love with the voice and it helps enrich that person’s life on a significant level, that level of intimacy. Then to have 100,000 views by people that don’t even remember what it was a day later, an hour later, a second later, it doesn’t have any lasting impact because it’s too repetitive of the patterns that we already know in Western music.
Buzz Knight [00:34:24] In closing, do you think music has a healing power to the soul?
Ian Brennan [00:34:33] It has definitely a healing power. I mean, neurologists know that it is the stimulus that activates more parts of your brain than anything else simultaneously. And so I can tell you about my sister, Jane. She has Down syndrome. Music was what connected us growing up. She had a very limited vocabulary in her life. Now, at the end of her life, towards the end of her life, she is almost completely non-verbal. She’s now non-ambulatory. She’s almost exclusively bedridden. She can’t feed herself. She’s incontinent. And and so largely she doesn’t communicate at all. But when I go to see her, I’ll put on music. And when I put on music, suddenly she will slowly blossom like a flower. And her inability to move, what ability she has is regained. And that usually begins with her left hand. She’s a left handed person, so she’ll start moving her left hand a little bit. And, you know, over the course of a couple of Michael Jackson songs and a couple of the Village People songs, she might start clapping her hands if encouraged to do so. And she might start singing non-verbally, but she’ll start singing and she’ll start laughing. And that’s the power of music is that it’s able to do something that physical therapists have not been able to do. That psycho, you know, tropical medications have not been able to do for her that even in this state where many people have labeled her as vegetative or have labeled her as demented, there’s a depth there that that can be reached by music that these other means cannot.
Buzz Knight [00:36:15] Ian Brennan, congratulations on the release of the oldest voice in the world and congrats on all your great work and thank you for sharing it and taking a Walk podcast.
Ian Brennan [00:36:27] No, thank you. It was great talking with you both. Thank you.
Buzz Knight [00:36:31] Taking a walk with Buzz Knight is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.