Dave “Chachi” Denes-President/Co-Founder Benztown on Takin A Walk

Buzz Knight:

00:00:00.939 – 00:00:28.129

 I’m Buzz Knight And this is the Takin a Walk podcast where we love to interview musicians and authors and executives and old friends from the radio business Dave Chachi Denes He’s the president and co-founder of Benztown leading international radio imaging company He’s one of the greatest guys and I can’t wait to talk to him on taking a walk next.

Well thanks for being on taking a walk albeit uh virtually but it’s so great to be with you.

Dave “Chachi” Denes:

00:00:36.119 – 00:00:39.72

 Uh Buzz Thank you so much for having me man It’s an honor to be here.

Buzz Knight:

00:00:39.729 – 00:00:51.599

 We usually are at  industry  events and at that point it’s a little hard to be able to break away and do the actual walk But uh we could always give that a stab at another point I

Chachi:

00:00:51.61 – 00:00:56.869

 I would love to do so It was great seeing you in Vegas at NAB and spending some time with you there

Buzz Knight:

00:00:57.099 – 00:00:59.599

 Did you lose the nest egg out there at all?

Chachi:

00:01:01.389 – 00:01:24.36

 You know here’s the funny thing my mom loves playing the slot machines and she had asked how I did in Vegas and I honestly did not have a moment of time to gamble even once I never put a dollar into a machine or on a table I generally do when I when I go to Vegas I like to play a little bit of craps or blackjack or some slot machines but I just never had a moment to do So

Buzz Knight:

00:01:24.489 – 00:01:28.65

 what was the best part for you of being at the NAB in Vegas?

Chachi:

00:01:28.989 – 00:01:45.779

 You know my favorite part buzz is seeing everyone such as yourself and hanging out and I really had a great time at the at the cocktails and conversation But as far as you know I guess the best takeaway from me in this particular NAB was really just all the conversation about A I

Buzz Knight:

00:01:46.41 – 00:01:48.16

 it’s actually really here.

Chachi:

00:01:48.419 – 00:01:56.76

 It is as we speak Congress right now is grilling the open A I creator Sam Altman

Buzz Knight:

00:01:57.4 – 00:02:05.05

 So what’s your feeling Is it something to 1000% embrace or to walk cautiously towards?

Chachi:

00:02:05.47 – 00:02:21.923

 man That is such a good question I am of the opinion and let me qualify this for a second I may change my mind an hour from now because it’s really hard for me to kind of just get my arms wrapped around at all But, we are really just trying to learn as much as we possibly can Gary Wall who I know you know well owns the jack format really bright man And he had said to me this reminded him a lot of the dot com era And he had told me he’d actually lost a lot of money during the dot com era because he invested early And uh unfortunately a lot of those companies went bust uh the pets dot com the alta vista of the world And while Google was born out of that era and ebay was born out of that era a lot of companies did not succeed And so he’s kind of the opinion and I agree with this is to learn as much as we possibly can try to figure it out and then learn about how we can potentially deploy this for our own you know whether in our particular case imaging and in production and so forth But uh I think at this point we’re in a mode we’re really just trying to learn what are your thoughts on it

Buzz Knight:

00:03:11.869 – 00:03:38.97

 I am always embracing new technology and innovation So I I look at this as something to try to embrace I just do fear an overdo effect that is going to create this reliance on it that frankly becomes you know just another reason for there to be less bodies deployed And that concerns me greatly

Chachi:

00:03:39.24 – 00:03:57.494

 I agree with that I read an interesting I think it was ad age article about the a in a I standing for average at this point everything that I’ve seen or heard come out of a I is average It’s impressive and don’t get me wrong The fact that it scrapes the entire internet and can give you a synopsis on a on a speech or a book or a movie or whatever it is that you ask is incredibly impressive But it’s nothing that a human cannot do it can certainly do it quicker but there’s nothing that’s coming out of it at this point that I’ve heard or seen that you’re like oh my God that’s creatively brilliant So

Buzz Knight:

00:04:16.524 – 00:04:24.029

 what shaped you and got you hell bent on a career around radio

Chachi:

00:04:24.48 – 00:04:50.7

 Really a good question I honestly I fell into it I was going to school in San Diego at the University of San Diego and I delivered a pizza to Michael Steele uh who was doing nights at the time at star 100.7 And uh I struck up a friendship with him and he eventually helped me get a job there screening calls uh basically uh for his show and then I became his producer slash sidekick, And after I graduated Rick Dees hired me to be an assistant producer up here And so I never really even thought about it as a career until I just kind of haphazardly fell into it And I honestly just uh was completely enamored by it And I remember when I first got that job there that incredible excitement of you know being in the studio the energy at the radio station the creatives that whole that whole vibe and I’ve never lost that excitement for it

Buzz Knight:

00:05:21.535 – 00:05:27.125

 When did you first realize that the people associated with the business were completely nuts

Chachi:

00:05:27.334 – 00:05:28.13

 Yeah, Probably pretty early on I mean I remember at the time Jeff and Jer were doing mornings who I think are absolutely brilliant And Tracy Johnson was the program director and there was just so many creative uh people with these quirky personalities but I’ve

always kind of gravitated towards uh towards that My family is is a bit like that And I think of radio when you went back you know at the beginning of the interview and you asked what I like the most about the NAB is I love being around the creatives and in the nutters if you will it’s it’s a lot of fun for me, The nutters.

Buzz Knight:

00:06:07.19 – 00:06:27.989

 I do miss though back to the NAB for a second the fact that you used to see you know more program directors and market manager types there who obviously are part of the nut squad And um I I didn’t feel that that was as prevalent

Chachi:

00:06:28.22 – 00:06:49.029

 Yeah I agree with you completely on that And I think that is sad I’ve noticed that trend uh for the last several years there’s fewer programmers fewer people at a station a local level and there’s more executives and why I love obviously seeing the executives I do think that uh these events are unfortunately um and I don’t know if it’s a price or if it’s a budget at station level or a combination um thereof But I agree we need more we need to have more air talent Uh We need to have more programmers and more of those those nutters there if you will Don Anthony does a great job with morning show boot camp and a lot of talent come out to that Um but I would certainly like to see uh more of the creatives at  at NAB

Buzz Knight:

00:07:10.459 – 00:07:13.72

 So, when did you first know you wanted to be a program director?

Chachi:

00:07:14.359 – 00:07:39.149

 You know I at first I was very excited about being the sidekick and being on air and Mike would send me out to do all these kind of crazy stunts out on the you know on the street like drive through Olympics And we had this big gigantic Cadillac from the seventies called the Surf Pig And I would uh pull people over that had the star 100.7 bumper sticker and uh give them you know prizes concert tickets and so forth So I loved all that. And then I remember coming up here and I met Jhani of all places at Rod Stewart’s house Rod at the time the market manager here Roy Laughlin his wife Ellen K who still does mornings at coast and does incredibly well She was in a Rod Stewart video and they had a release party viewing party for this Rod Stewart video that Ellen starred in And I got invited to go to this and Jhani was there and Gwen Roberts who worked at Kiss and was a fixture at Kiss for many years introduced us And I was like wow man this is really kind of fascinating We’re from the same town He was a legendary ac programmer He was programming coast in big at the time And I just got really interested uh on the programming side really through him And so Roy allowed me to transfer over to go become Jhani’s programming coordinator. And so I was very fortunate to you know learn by Jhani I got so lucky buzz to have incredible mentors around me I had Tracy Johnson who I think is a creative and a brilliant programmer And Jhani who are very different Jhani much more of a meticulous programmer and more much about the details But I really I felt got to learn from these two different sides but both equally successful PDS

Buzz Knight:

00:08:56.859 – 00:09:07.289

 So that set your sights on being a PD at the age of 28 years old You were the youngest PD in L A history at that point

Chachi:

00:09:07.659 – 00:09:27.159

 Yeah I got really lucky Jhani at that point in his career was looking to kind of slow down a little bit and uh he was basically became kind of a consultant and really just a mentor to myself and then to Stella at the time So Stella was given the PD role at Coast and then I was at K big

Buzz Knight:

00:09:27.76 – 00:09:30.109

 Were you scared to death at first?

Chachi:

00:09:30.65 – 00:09:50.71

 Yeah for sure for sure I mean at that point too and this is 2000 I think that was in 2004 which is crazy It was 19 years ago now But I remember you know every 10th of a point was a million dollars’ worth of billing annual billing for the radio station And so they watched those numbers incredibly closely, and there was a you know a tremendous amount of pressure and then you’re trying to you know I had I remember there were just being a lot of chefs in the kitchen at that point you had certainly Jhani at the point that Steve Smith was involved you know our market we had Co market managers Greg Ashlock and Roy Laughlin I mean there was a lot a station manager Craig Rossi I mean all great people but there was just uh a lot of pressure and I certainly you know had this great tutelage under Jhani and Tracy prior to that but nothing really prepares you for that pressure and just you know dealing and not only that you had you know big air that you’re contending with And so it was a lot a lot came at me very quickly

Buzz Knight:

00:10:31.299 – 00:10:34.809

 What did you uh look at that period? When you think of the promotional  flare that existed in radio And how does it look from then to now when you think of promotional flare?

Chachi:

00:10:44.95 – 00:11:00.539

 man that’s  I think a great question and I think kind of going back to what we were you know the initial point we were talking about in regards to A I and unfortunately I think our programming our marketing has suffered over the years Jhani uh told me the story in the eighties and you’re gonna be blown away by the statistic but when Jhani was programming Coast in the eighties uh Dick Clark was the spokesperson Cox owned him at the time Their marketing budget was $4 million a year. Coast commercials were on the air practically 365 days out of the year They had bus boards billboards I mean you could not go uh you know in you couldn’t drive around L A without you know having coast hit you everywhere If you watch where the streets have no name by U2 that YouTube video You’ll see a coast billboard or a bus board drive through that video That’s how prevalent the marketing was when I left K big our marketing budget was when I 2009 was $800,000 a year. Not to name names but I do know someone who’s a marketing director a good friend of mine in a major market and uh he’s now basically expected to just trade tickets uh to sports games for marketing uh if they need to a van they’re just gonna trade out tickets for that And so that goes to kind of show you just how different uh we look at marketing now uh compared to what we did you know 30 40 years ago

Buzz Knight:

00:12:15.099 – 00:12:18.679

 Do you think the lawyers took some of the fun out of this too?

Chachi:

00:12:19.679 – 00:12:20.239

 Yeah, Yeah You know I think sure to some degree I think that uh you know there there’s always you know us creatives are always going to be at odds with attorneys but the lawyers I think were always there but I think a lot of it has to do now with or most of it I should say is you know the the economics um, go back to to uh you know what Gary Wall we were talking about him earlier over at Jack and I think he just he shares a lot of wisdom with me he was given an opportunity 20 plus years ago to buy a building in Nashville off a Broadway Street I don’t remember the same the exact price but I it was several $100,000 maybe short of a million dollars. but it was right after 9 11 and at that point Broadway was still pretty run down It was not a really the the there was a few uh bars and restaurants down there but nothing compared to what it was now or what it is now And uh he passed on that opportunity to invest in this building and he saw the other day uh in the newspaper that that building just sold for $18 million. And his analogy was that at that point he didn’t see it he didn’t have the vision to see that Broadway was going to turn to what it is today, and it was really this undervalued real estate and it just took someone to come in redo that building turn it into a great restaurant a great bar and it just kind of brought up the whole rest of the neighborhood and we see that all the time with uh you know uh downtowns being revitalized and so forth And the analogy is in his mind it’s very much like radio. I think that radio stations are these incredible assets that unfortunately are I think by our own doing are kind of looked upon and being in a bad neighborhood And I think that these stations need some investment just like that building off a broadway uh to turn them into back to what they were And when you look in we’ll tie this back into a I. back into my kind of assessment of right now It being average if we continue just to put average content on a radio station whether that’s you know uh and I don’t mean this as a dig to anyone but average uh air talent or average imaging or average you know music or whatever it is we’re gonna get average results If we really invest and we revitalize these stations and we invest in that content I do think that they can absolutely be turned around just like that building in Nashville was turned around Uh But right now I feel that we’ve kind of self-inflicted this wound because we’ve cut back so significantly on the marketing on the investment in the talent on you know just the overall investment in the building

Buzz Knight:

00:15:06.572 – 00:15:12.69

 So if we would approach uh where we are in the business with a beginner’s sort of mindset, what advice with a fresh perspective would you give to operators and influencers in the industry to make a difference?

Chachi:

00:15:24.69 – 00:15:39.82

 I think the advice is right now for a lot of these companies we need to a make investments But I think part of that’s going to be having to re retool the economics because a lot of the groups got themselves into way too much debt, And unfortunately that leads to more and more cuts and it makes it almost impossible for them to be able to make the investments that they need to So I think it becomes unfortunately the spiral that’s very hard to break And so I was hopeful when we saw you know Cumulus and iHeart um uh go through those restructurings um that uh you know that there’d be more investment into these various uh assets And I think that

, to some degree there has been but I think unfortunately economically they couldn’t have planned for the pandemic they couldn’t have planned for uh you know what we’re seeing with inflation So I think it’s been hard uh for them given the current economic headwinds to make those investments And so you almost have to completely start from scratch in some ways and uh maybe go back to where you know back into the seventies and the eighties where we just had a few handful of radio stations but we really invested heavily in them

Buzz Knight:

00:16:38.64 – 00:16:46.289

 So when did you first look at leadership skills and look at yourself and kind of hone those skills?

Chachi:

00:16:47.299 – 00:17:06.489

 I don’t know if I’ve ever owned them Buzz That’s very nice of you too nice of you to say you know a lot of it again very fortunate My parents uh you know my father is a physician My mom was a teacher And so I think I naturally had uh a lot of uh good influences around me And then I got to go to a you know a good went to us D and um I did student government there And so I got some uh a little bit there and then you know these just the mentors that I’ve had I mean I’ve been really fortunate to have you know great people around me and uh take time and you know share their knowledge But I’m still honestly man I’m learning uh every day.

Buzz Knight:

00:17:29.52 – 00:17:30.569

When did you learn delegation?

Chachi:

00:17:35.319 – 00:17:58.084

 you know um that probably you know a bit from Jhani bit from Tracy was very I was very again lucky to have people that empowered me Um Rossi who is the market manager the uh the general manager here I remember uh you know Roy Laughlin coming in Uh and you know Roy would have his big yellow notepad with all his ideas and he said you’re the program director but you need to you know as the market manager you need to give me uh my um basically time give me the time to pitch my ideas And even if you don’t like any of them I just want you to hear them out But I was never there wasn’t uh a lot of cram downs at the at the time when I was in the business And so I was very lucky to have people that empowered me and and ultimately took a chance on

Buzz Knight:

00:18:21.069 – 00:18:29.01

 So, let’s talk about how Benztown t came to be created. Talk about that whole process Walk me through it

Chachi:

00:18:29.02 – 00:18:29.63

 Yeah, So in 2009 I was invited to leave clear channel That was when President Obama the day invited to leave invited to leave Uh President Obama was getting inaugurated that day and they had major layoffs It was right after Bain capital bought the company And if you if we go back in the time machine that was uh something they didn’t want to close on And there was a bunch of uh you know legal maneuvering and ultimately a judge forced that. And so they had to make a lot of cuts It was in the throes of the financial recession And so uh they made some bold moves and I got caught up in that, and uh through Tracy Johnson so many things that go back around to Tracy I had been introduced to my partners Andy and Ali he was overseas and uh he was in Europe I think at radio days or something along those lines And met Andy and Ali and they had come over prior to 2009 to the States to see him wanted to tour a US radio station And so Tracy had called me going hey do you mind showing him around It was MY FM at the time I said absolutely I took him to Bob’s Boy for for an all American meal And uh they were in the jingle business and they were interested in growing here in the States And so when I got let go it really kind of was an opportunity to uh to start a business with them And we saw uh a kind of a space with imaging libraries And so we started with four or five libraries and shortly thereafter that we grew into voiceover and custom imaging and then long form syndication and it just all kind of came together really uh or organically and through you know just ultimately relationships

Buzz Knight:

00:20:06.5 – 00:20:10.699

 and how did the team come together Did it come together organically as well?

Chachi:

00:20:10.89 – 00:20:32.442

 It really did I initially Masa who’s been with us almost from the very beginning I knew him he was invited to leave Clear Channel the same day he was at Premiere and we didn’t know each other at the time but Eileen Thorson had introduced us afterwards And so I remember hiring Masa and I would just write him his paycheck uh out of my own personal account at the beginning I I just you know I was lucky at the time I was bitter about it but candidly in retrospect clear channel took good care of me on the back end Uh I had like nine months worth of severance and then uh Tracy again uh comes to my save uh to my rescue He was working at the time for M 20 And so I got hired to work at M 20 to consult those were loyalty reward programs when uh you know that was that was a big deal And Reg John’s  company and Tracy was working there And so I got to do that and kind of build BENZTOWN simultaneously So it all really worked out very well And in retrospect professionally while I loved being a program director uh and really enjoyed the people I worked with and just had a great time uh in respect professionally turned out to be the best thing that could have happened to me That

Buzz Knight:

00:21:16.135 – 00:21:18.839

 sounds like an understatement doesn’t it.

Chachi:

00:21:19.41 – 00:21:42.51

 Well I guess it depends on the day There are certain days where you’re like well I don’t know this is uh this can be more of a headache uh than I than I I would like But there are more days than not buzz that I am incredibly fortunate and I feel very lucky for uh a uh just you know the people that I get to work with the clients that we get to work with and all the people that have you know supported me

Buzz Knight:

00:21:43.239 – 00:21:54.4

 So when your road map for Benztown how do you put innovation in the midst of that road map during challenging economic times

Chachi:

00:21:55.28 – 00:22:24.505

 That’s tough man And it’s easy to be critical of some of the operators like we were talking about a couple of minutes ago Um But it is very tough when you’re in those the economic challenging times and uh just interest rates as much as they’ve gone up here over the last few months or last I should say 14 months our price of lending our borrowing I should say has gone up almost 400% Um And so it all of a sudden becomes much more expensive uh to best which is a very challenging uh from an operator standpoint or even from our standpoint So you’ve got to and and I don’t have to worry about I’ve got partners and so forth but I don’t have to worry about shareholders and uh making sure that uh you know private equity investors are getting their ROI so I’m very lucky in that uh regard if you want by the way I don’t if you’ve read this or not buzz but uh just a little bit of a tangent Have you read Jeff Smulyan’s book Never Ride a roller coaster upside down I have, he goes into great book right And he goes into you know some of those struggles when all of a sudden radio went from you know uh Wall Street’s darling to you know no one was interested And so there’s all these economic forces that the operators have to abide by that I personally because we’re a much smaller uh company don’t have any uh shareholders and so forth don’t have to uh rule by And so back to some.  it’s a long way around the barn But back to your original question we tend to be pretty bold here So um we we don’t take giant salaries I I’m well paid and I’m very uh fortunate but we and the partners feel the same way We really invest very heavily back into the company So not all the time does that pay off Uh There are times where we make a mistake and we invest in things that uh, that end up failing Um And that you know we learn from those mistakes Uh But uh we I I guess we we go big Um And so that’s kind of the long way around We’re not afraid to invest and ultimately uh make less money Uh But uh feel it’s the right thing for the co in lieu of thinking or uh we make less money because we feel it’s the right thing for the company to reinvest that answer your question Yeah

Buzz Knight:

00:24:08.14 – 00:24:13.739

 What are some of the favorite musical experiences you had uh in your career that you can share?

Chachi:

00:24:14.369 – 00:24:22.56

 Great question man Humphreys by the Bay in uh San Diego is an amazing venue out uh in Shelter Island. And I think in 97 or 98 I can’t remember exactly when Michael Hutchins came through from INXS and I always was just a gigantic fan And this was like the last time he came through before unfortunately tragically uh taking his own life And I remember being at Humphreys, having uh these amazing uh seats I mean we were practically front maybe two or three rows back but uh just these amazing seats and I felt like he was just uh he was the epitome of a rock star And uh so that probably stands out the most to me uh because I was just really young really into, INXS And here I got to like see um you know see them live even though he was on the you know unfortunately not in a great part of his career It was still uh something very memorable And then uh what and I don’t have Google in front of me but I cannot remember exactly what year uh he had passed away but Michael happened to be on vacation and I was on the air and he had um committed suicide in Australia And so it was the next day in Australia and I was doing nights at KFMB, and KFNB had a television station in the building as well They were the CBS affiliate and so I was there doing the show by myself and in comes the TV station to do an interview with me about Michael Hutchins passing away And uh that was in I mean obviously incredibly sad uh news but uh it was very surreal for me I’d probably been in the position for you know a year or maybe you know less and here like an idol of mine uh you know I died and I’m being interviewed to comment on it That was a very I I know it’s macabre and dark but that’s probably what stands out to me most Um one more too on that I got to take my dad was always a huge Carlos Santana fan and I got to take him to see Carlos Santana at the Hollywood Bowl and we got to go backstage and meet Carlos Santana and did a whole lush photo shoot and my dad just absolutely loved that So that’s also really memorable

Buzz Knight:

00:26:23.515 – 00:26:24.4

 That’s awesome.

Buzz Knight:

00:26:25.13 – 00:26:29.55

 Talk about your foray into podcasting since you’re on a podcast.

Chachi:

00:26:30.069 – 00:26:48.084

 I again I I keep on bringing up some of the same people but it’s funny Uh These people have been so integral in my life It was Gary Wall’s idea Gary had we were having dinner a few years ago here and he thought you know you should uh you should do a podcast uh where you uh you know people in the business and uh it was really his brainchild And uh I kind of like I didn’t really buy into the idea at the beginning and uh then I finally decided you know what let’s do it And I tried my first one with Jhani Kay and uh it worked out all right I think

Buzz Knight:

00:27:05.979 – 00:27:06.819

 I think you’re natural.

Chachi:

00:27:08.239 – 00:27:36.53

 Well I mean that means a lot coming from you My friend I’m a I’m a big fan in speaking of podcasts a big fan of your podcast And uh I really enjoy listening to it and I I’ve really enjoyed being on with you man It’s uh like I said at the beginning I am a very grateful for everything you’ve done for us uh over the years and in in the partnership that we’ve had I’m a big fan of uh of your podcast And uh thank you for thinking of me and considering me

Buzz Knight:

00:27:36.839 – 00:27:46.66

 Well thank you for always being first class supportive, curious and a dear friend I so appreciate you being on.

Chachi:

00:27:46.67 – 00:28:04.66

 anything we can ever do for you Buzz Uh Please do not hesitate to ask and uh I could not recommend uh you uh more I think you are uh a a brilliant programming mind and uh I would love to work with you more in the future Thanks

Buzz Knight:

00:28:05.17 – 00:28:05.26

Thanks Chachi

Announcer:

00:28:06.3 – 00:28:14.719

 Takin A Walk with Buzz Knight is available on Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever You get your podcasts.

Buzz Knight is an established media executive with a long history of content creation and multi-platform distribution.

After a successful career as a Radio Executive, he formed Buzz Knight Media which focuses on strategic guidance and the development of new original content.